What do you think about this forum?

[yankeefan1970]

Originally Posted by Ranger

Heh. That would be me, I imagine.

Since you brought it up, yes, you would have been the main person that came to my mind when I spoke of personal attacks.

Originally Posted by Ranger

In other words, I much prefer conversing with people that speak their minds freely, without holding anything back. And I also think that if certain people can't take the heat then they should probably just stay out of the kitchen.

Interesting point of view. I was speaking my mind freely in several threads. You posted that my grasp on reality was fragile. You later called me a mindless apologist.

Originally Posted by Ranger

I've read your posts. You're just another one of those brainless Republican/Bush apologists. Another clueless mouth-breather with a blank, vacuous stare, and an incredibly gullible mind.

Am I not entitled to my views and thoughts on the issues, even if they don't conform with your views?

Rather than question why I have an opinion on an issue, you used a personal attack meant to belittle me. WHY? What did the forum gain from that? What did the thread gain from that?

"Heat" as you refer to it would be if you were asking me a very pointed question on my opinions. "Heat" is not calling someone mindless or making fun of them in other ways.

So if I can be allowed to "speak MY mind freely", then the personal attacks should have no place in the forum. If you disagree with something I say, call me on it. Ask me for the foundation of my believe, rather than call me mindless or anything else.

You clearly don't like Bush and his politics. I respect your right to have that opinion. You lost respect when you resorted to many of the off color statements you posted in response to my posts. Rather than question my opinion you question me as a person.

Once again, how does that advance the forum or the thread?

[Boiler]

Originally Posted by Ranger

In other words, I much prefer conversing with people that speak their minds freely, without holding anything back. And I also think that if certain people can't take the heat then they should probably just stay out of the kitchen.
.

Speaking your mind freely and attacking people on a personal level is not the same. While I agree that people often are too sensitive and more 'direct' language could be needed in discussions, it's also a question of decency how you talk to your opponent.

I intentionally say 'decency' and not 'respect' because I think 'respect' has to be earned first. Furthermore, sometimes it is probably impossible to hold someone in respect, when political and religious opinions are too different and the situation gets charged with emotions.

Still, as civilized people we should always maintain a certain level of decency. If we don't, it gets harder and harder to have interesting and thrilling discussions.

That having said, I think that you did exceed the limit with your remarks towards yankeefan. I have a massive difference of opinion with yankeefan about Bush and his Iraq/Afghanistan policy, but I would never attack him (or anyone else for that matter) the way you did.

There's a simple reason for this: the one thing that is worse than namecalling and personal attacks is when you don't talk at all.

Now, where is this damn gloriole?

[Phunkie]

Originally Posted by hehehhehe

Don't know if you mean me when you say "you" but pretty much every person in this thread has noted the antagonism (personal attacks, etc..), even those you agree with.

What I meant was that in my opinion the antagonism isn't very strongly present in this forum. There are a lot of disagreements and strong language, and a few cases that went a bit too far, but overall and comparing to many other forums this one is pretty clean.

If you meant just in that one post, than I was referring to this:

Aren't you *kind of* antagonizing? And that's why I referred to insecurity - perhaps you thought I was talking about you and got offended. That's what insecurity means in this case. Anyway, just drop it, no harm done .

Nah, I wasn't offended. I'm not easily offended, at least not in the internet. Maybe I should've used a smilie so that the post wouldn't have sounded so serious. But like you said, let's drop it. No harm feelings :beer:

[Ranger]

Originally Posted by yankeefan1970

Interesting point of view. I was speaking my mind freely in several threads. You posted that my grasp on reality was fragile. You later called me a mindless apologist.

We are really only talking about one particular thread here, are we not?

Yes, you were speaking your mind freely. And so was I.

I truly do believe that your grasp of political reality is indeed fragile, and I said so, frankly and honestly. I also believe that you are, indeed, a mindless apologist for Bush and Co. as well, and I base that opinion on the bulk of your posts in this and in other forums, over a period of several years. Would I be more honest by simply not stating my actual feelings on that particular subject right to your face? Would you prefer that I censor them out for you? Would that make what I had to say more "real" to you, somehow? I think it was a perfectly valid personal assessment, and perfectly germane to the overall discussion. One must always consider the quality and origin of the source in question, after all. If the source is simply a mindless parrot then lets call it a mindless parrot, so we're not laboring under any unnecessary illusions, here.

Am I not entitled to my views and thoughts on the issues, even if they don't conform with your views?

Certainly you are. You're also entitled to hear my opinions of your views and thoughts. Am I not entitled to present that aspect of my own views and thoughts here, as well?

Since the real "problem" at the very root of the subject that was being discussed actually boils down to the costly, dangerous and positively surreal political beliefs of certain very fucked up people that routinely support these kinds of fucked up political policies and arguments, and since you are clearly one of those people supporting those fucked up policies and arguments, then your stated views make you a perfectly legitimate target for rebuttal and condemnation; and the nature and origins of your own personal motivation for believing what you believe are also perfectly fair game, so far as I'm concerned. In other words: why you believe what you believe is every bit as relevant and germane (maybe even moreso) as what it is that you actually believe in is, to me.

Rather than question why I have an opinion on an issue, you used a personal attack meant to belittle me. WHY? What did the forum gain from that? What did the thread gain from that?

You prefer to believe that it was a purely personal attack. Maybe it was. I prefer to think that I was simply pointing out the patently obvious to somebody that apparently very badly needed to be made aware of it, and that I did so in no uncertain terms.

I have no need to question why you hold certain opinions on certain issues: I already know the answer to that question, and I pointed out my own personal views on that particular subject very clearly.

The forum and the thread participants were presented with the opportunity to weigh the possibility that you are nothing but a neocon political parrot, once I had openly voiced the charge, or at least they were given the opportunity to consider that possibility once it had been voiced.

"Heat" as you refer to it would be if you were asking me a very pointed question on my opinions. "Heat" is not calling someone mindless or making fun of them in other ways.

That "heat" I was referring to is simply the real, honest, genuine, existing, personal human passions, feelings and emotions of the poster, put into words for all to see and consider, for whatever it's worth.

What you fail to understand and appreciate, I guess, is that to you the subject was apparently just another inconsequential political matter. But to me it's something else altogether. You see, I have close personal friends that are actually being killed and wounded in Iraq and Afghanistan right now, solely because of Bush and his stupid, incomprehensible military actions and vainglorious political ambitions.

I have already been to the funerals of three US servicemen in the past few months. Funerals for soldiers that I knew personally. Funerals for real people that I cared about -- they are not just nameless, faceless statistical blips to be bandied about just to make your lame neocon political points; not to me. I want YOU to understand that, clearly and fully. It IS a personal matter to me. Very personal. They were good, decent men with wives, friends and families, and their lives have now been forfeited, all because of some incompetent fool's totally fucked up political (and personal) agenda. And I blame everybody that supports that fool for that loss. Including you.

I think that people like you need to be made totally aware of that harsh reality from time to time. I think you need to understand that other people DO blame you -personally- for this mess right now, and that they always will. Simply because you support it. And I think you, and those that believe as you believe, need to be confronted with your own personal culpability in the matter. Confronted directly, without any "politely toned-down" words or arguments. You need to be made aware of the real-life consequences and costs of your political bullshit, in human terms, so that you can fully "own" your own personal part in it, as you damned well should.

If you had some part in causing the deaths of my friends and my comrades (and supporting Bush definitely qualifies, in my book) then you automatically have a very real problem with me, as well. Your ass becomes mine at that point, so to speak; make no mistake about that. You'll just have to learn to deal with that development as best you can, I guess. Be thankful I can't actually get my hands on you physically. The way I'm feeling about all of this neocon bullshit right now I'd really fuck you up good if I could, and I'd suffer any subsequent consequences gladly. That's how I'm feeling about all the neocon assholes and their supporters right now, to put it very bluntly.

So if I can be allowed to "speak MY mind freely", then the personal attacks should have no place in the forum. If you disagree with something I say, call me on it. Ask me for the foundation of my believe, rather than call me mindless or anything else.

I did call you on it. That's exactly how I "call" people on such things.

I think I'm fully aware of the actual "foundation" of your political opinions and beliefs, such as they are. That comes through in your posts loud and clear, whether you realize it or not. The foundation of your beliefs is, in fact, your total acceptance of certain totally indefensible neocon political ideologies, in my opinion. It's been pretty obvious, over time, that you don't even attempt to think for yourself, you only parrot what the neocon spin-doctors that you adore feed you in their cute little 30-second political sound bites and their endless (and brainless) patriotic cliches. You strike me as nothing more than another brainless Rush Limbaugh drone, to be honest with you.

Rather than question my opinion you question me as a person.

My friends are getting killed because some PEOPLE that share some very fucked-up political ideals are currently in charge of our military forces here in the US. And because other PEOPLE (like Tony Blair, for instance) are politically and militarily supporting them. And you are one of those people that ultimately bear some real measure of responsibility for all of that, it seems to me, since you obviously continue to contribute your own political support to them, and to their insane, sociopathic political policies.

PEOPLE make political decisions and choices. PEOPLE are responsible for them. PEOPLE like you. And some PEOPLE need to be made aware of the actual consequences of their beliefs, and they further need to be made aware of the fact that other PEOPLE are actually dying for those misguided beliefs.

And that makes me as mad as hell. There was no valid reason for it; none at all. Sorry if the fact that I do take the entire situation very personally somehow offends you in some way. If the shoe fits, then you should consider wearing it, I think.

Originally Posted by Boiler

That having said, I think that you did exceed the limit with your remarks towards yankeefan. I have a massive difference of opinion with yankeefan about Bush and his Iraq/Afghanistan policy, but I would never attack him (or anyone else for that matter) the way you did.

And why not? You wouldn't go after the very people that you know are responsible for intentionally hurting and killing the people that you care about? If you wouldn't, that's pretty cowardly, if you ask me.

Maybe it's just that you haven't actually lost any of your own friends (yet) because of their ongoing stupidity?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

What have my remarks added to the discussion, you ask? Perhaps just this one thing: now you all know that not all of us here in the US are in favor of this administration's policies and decisions, or of what they have done or are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan and other places right now, for one thing. Many of us are truly outraged, and our outrage is growing stronger with each passing day, and with each funeral attended. And you now know that some of us here in the US are no longer holding back our deep outrage about this any more. We'll get right up in your face about it all, and we won't back down once we're in your face, either. Because for many of us this has personally touched our lives in the most unpleasant way imaginable. There is nothing quite like burying your friends to make you aware of just how much you resent the incredibly fucked up "reasons" for their having passed on.

And just for the record, it's not just the loss of my own close personal friends that's got me so inflamed right now. I feel just as sorry for the innocent Iraqi's and Afghans, and for all those other people in this world that are either dead or suffering because of this idiot Bush and his grandiose ambitions, and because of those that continue to support him politically. They are only succeeding in making terrorism all the more popular all over the globe, and people everywhere, in Europe and in Asia and in the Middle East will have to pay the real price for Bush's endless attempts to gain some sort of political popularity here at home, and to ensure that he wins that next election.

My own personal disgust and outrage about that, and with my own fellow Americans that continue to support this crap, is simply beyond words. But poking Bush's supporters in the eye, whenever and wherever I find them, does seem to help a little bit sometimes. Forgive me, if you will. I'm only human, after all.

[Boiler]

Originally Posted by Ranger

And why not? You wouldn't go after the very people that you know are responsible for intentionally hurting and killing the people that you care about? If you wouldn't, that's pretty cowardly, if you ask me.

I didn't know yankeefan killed some of you friends. I feel sorry.

Seriously, of course I would go after the people who are responsible for the current mess (verbally, that is). I can understand why you are upset, but if you get angry towards someone like yankeefan, you do this - in my opinion - out of frustration because you can't get to those who really are responsible for the suffering of the people you care about.

Still, I do agree with you that people who share and support the political ideas of the current administration, also are (in part at least) responsible for what is happening right now.
Yet isn't so the soldier who goes off to war, knowing that what he is doing is wrong? I remember some Israeli soldiers who did no longer want to commit actions that in their eyes were wrong. They faced the consequences of their ethical standards. What about US soldiers saying "no, this is wrong. Rather than being part of such stupidity, I'll resign."
Would you go to join the war in Iraq if Bush calls on you?

Originally Posted by Ranger

What have my remarks added to the discussion, you ask? Perhaps just this one thing: now you all know that not all of us here in the US are in favor of this administration's policies and decisions, or of what they have done or are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan and other places right now, for one thing. Many of us are truly outraged, and our outrage is growing stronger with each passing day, and with each funeral attended. And you now know that some of us here in the US are no longer holding back our deep outrage about this any more. We'll get right up in your face about it all, and we won't back down once we're in your face, either. Because for many of us this has personally touched our lives in the most unpleasant way imaginable. There is nothing quite like burying your friends to make you aware of just how much you resent the incredibly fucked up "reasons" for their having passed on.

Most people here know that many Americans strongly disapprove of the actions of the current administration. Yet when you start name-calling other people, you [/exaggeration] prove (to me at least) that you are just the other side of the medal [/exaggeration]. People who need to use verbal insults in order to make their point are likely to use violence when things get complicated. Just as Bush did to solve the 'Saddam-Problem'.

Originally Posted by Ranger

And just for the record, it's not just the loss of my own close personal friends that's got me so inflamed right now. I feel just as sorry for the innocent Iraqi's and Afghans, and for all those other people in this world that are either dead or suffering because of this idiot Bush and his grandiose ambitions, and because of those that continue to support him politically. They are only succeeding in making terrorism all the more popular all over the globe, and people everywhere, in Europe and in Asia and in the Middle East will have to pay the real price for Bush's endless attempts to gain some sort of political popularity here at home, and to ensure that he wins that next election.

I absolutely agree. That's why I think every continent should count as a US-State during elections and get a respective number of electors.

Originally Posted by Ranger

I'm only human, after all.

No offense intended, but this is a lame excuse. It's exactly because you are human why you should know better. Or are you just an American? ;)

[yankeefan1970]

Originally Posted by Ranger

We are really only talking about one particular thread here, are we not?

Shouldn't matter. You use a personal attack once, and you're labeled that way. I've also read your responses in many other threads. When someone has an opinion which differs from your own, you automatically belittle that person for having the belief.

Originally Posted by Ranger

If the source is simply a mindless parrot then lets call it a mindless parrot, so we're not laboring under any unnecessary illusions, here.

Mindless... This keeps coming up. Mindless apologist, mindless parrot.

Just because I choose to keep an open mind about things, rather than form a hard opinion, and I'm mindless? I'd go so far as to say that the 'mindless' individuals you keep bringing up, are those who have already rushed to form an opinion. I'm willing to keep an open mind, so I can see things without prejudice. You have formed one opinion and if ANYTHING is different from that, you go on the attack.

I guess you would really like to see me mindless. Give up MY opinion and join sides with you. Would that make you happy?

Originally Posted by Ranger

You prefer to believe that it was a purely personal attack. Maybe it was. I prefer to think that I was simply pointing out the patently obvious to somebody that apparently very badly needed to be made aware of it, and that I did so in no uncertain terms.

What exactly did you point out in no uncertain terms? That I'm mindless?

If you feel that things need to be pointed out to me, why not point out the facts on the issue/thread, rather than call me mindless... or worse.

Originally Posted by Ranger

Bush is a dickhead. An idiot. An inbred. A religious nut case. A fool. If you believe his shit then so are you.

So, you're pointing out that I'm a dickhead, and idiot, I'm inbred, a religious nutcase, and a fool. All of that because I have an opinion which varries from your own?

Yes... I can clearly see how all of that naturally applies since I have expressed a simple thought. Certainly because I choose to keep an open mind my parents must have been related to one another. Yes, Yes, Yes. Everything you've said about my personal character must apply. You are a supreme being yourself and can look down upon me and point out all of these flaws. :sleepy: Oh wait... I must have dozed off there. You're no more or less human that I am. You are no more or less entitled to an opinion than I am. The difference is that I'd much rather discuss the issue at hand, than call you names. Is there a reason that you can't seem to grasp such a basic concept?

Originally Posted by Ranger

The forum and the thread participants were presented with the opportunity to weigh the possibility that you are nothing but a neocon political parrot, once I had openly voiced the charge, or at least they were given the opportunity to consider that possibility once it had been voiced.

Who died and made you the leader of the world? When were you granted the power to voice a charge against anyone of us?

Let people form their own opinions on me. I don't think they need your help to think for themselves. Or, do you consider everyone "mindless"? The funny thing is, everyone else who has an opinion different from mine has not once called me anything remotely close to what saturates your threads.

Originally Posted by Ranger

I have already been to the funerals of three US servicemen in the past few months. Funerals for soldiers that I knew personally. Funerals for real people that I cared about -- they are not just nameless, faceless statistical blips to be bandied about just to make your lame neocon political points; not to me. I want YOU to understand that, clearly and fully. It IS a personal matter to me. Very personal.

OH... You want me to understand that. So, why did you not state something like that in a previous thread? Why not say what you just did, rather than call me mindless, etc, etc, etc?

I also find it very disturbing that you just naturally assumed that I have no loved ones caught up in the conflict. That I have not felt loss here as well. I have an uncle who was killed when one of those planes hit the WTC. I have two cousins, and several very close friends who are either currently in Iraq, or have very recently rotated out. I have, or should I say "I had" a very close friend killed in Iraq.

How dare you presume that I'm this mindless individual who has no personal ties to the conflict!

Don't assume that you're the only person in the world who has personal ties to all the fighting. It's thoughts like that which cloud your vision.

Originally Posted by Ranger

They were good, decent men with wives, friends and families, and their lives have now been forfeited, all because of some incompetent fool's totally fucked up political (and personal) agenda. And I blame everybody that supports that fool for that loss. Including you.

Where exactly did I say that I support the war and support my friend being killed? Please, point that out to me.

I support the troops. They are doing a job that they signed up for. Is it unfortunate? Yes. I would never send my friends into a war to see them die. Do I feel like the president is to blame for everything wrong in the world? Absolutely not. Afterall, he's not a supreme being like yourself. :bitch

Originally Posted by Ranger

Confronted directly, without any "politely toned-down" words or arguments. You need to be made aware of the real-life consequences and costs of your political bullshit, in human terms, so that you can fully "own" your own personal part in it, as you damned well should.

If you want to point something out to me, that's perfectly fine. Point out the issue. Don't belittle me in the process because I choose to think differently than you.

Human terms... Hmmm... Let me think on that for a moment...

Would human terms be something like attending the closed casket funeral of your best friend because his body was too damaged in Iraq to be viewed? Would it be spending an entire weekend with his parents, remembering what their son like in grade school? Would it be seeing his fiancé crying like I've never seen anyone cry before?

Originally Posted by Ranger

Be thankful I can't actually get my hands on you physically. The way I'm feeling about all of this neocon bullshit right now I'd really fuck you up good if I could, and I'd suffer any subsequent consequences gladly.

And the truth comes out. Yes, anyone who has a thought different from your own, should simply be beaten into submission. Right? What a great pacifist you make. I'll bet your ex-wife and kids just loved you. Did you beat them too when they expressed a thought that you didn't agree with?

Perhaps you can cure me too if only you can hit me hard enough?

Naturally, you have the power to beat me down. The whole supreme being thing again, isn't it? Yes. Having never met me or even seen what I look like, you're supremely confident enough to make such a bold statement.

You know nothing of me, save what you've read in my posts. Do you go around ready to bash in the heads of people you actually meet in life who say something you don't believe in? I'll bet you're one heck of a blast at the summer block party! Yeah, I'll bet everyone just loves sitting around shooting the shit with you. One wrong word and you're ready to beat the crap out of them, right?

Be thankful that the internet is anonymous. Threats of any kind really aren't something I take all that kindly to.

Originally Posted by Ranger

You wouldn't go after the very people that you know are responsible for intentionally hurting and killing the people that you care about? If you wouldn't, that's pretty cowardly, if you ask me.

Uhhh... Isn't that the basic reason why we're going after terrorists and terrorist nations? Because they did intentionally kill people that all of us care about? My uncle died in the attack on the WTC, along with quite a few other people.

Did you maybe forget that little event in history?

Ranger,

I don't know where all of this deep seated hatred has come from. I think you've really lost touch with some parts of reality though. There are those of us who have lost friends and family, yet we're still able to keep an open mind. You're baseless assumptions do nothing more than enrage you to the point where you are blind. Blind to the fact that there are more than one side to every story. Blind to the fact that despite losses, some of us still feel like the men and women fighting in Iraq are helping to bring some peace to the world. Blind to the fact that people do have different opinions from your own, and despite those opinions being different they are still intelligent, caring individuals.

What I say now, I say with all sincerity. I really think you need to seek professional help! You have gone way beyond what a rational person would do in a general conversation with people they don't know. Threats of violence against someone is not how you want to go about your life. You are so enraged over the violence happening in the world that you're now ready to beat me to death over the matter, because I'm not in complete agreement with what you've said. I think you've started to loose your own grip on reality if you feel like violence against someone is going to solve all your problems. You really do need to speak with someone about this pent up aggression. Otherwise, you are likely to actually follow through and hurt or kill someone who says something you don't agree with.

[Startup]

I have one question for yankeefan1970 and Ranger...

Considering how people have cyber-sex, if you two start to engage in a cyber-fight, will you both have to beat yourselves to the head until you are unconscious? LOL

Seriously, I would never censor a good flame war, but I think you both need to take a moment and wonder why you are letting yourselves entertain violent thoughts toward each other. The more you two allow your opinions to degenerate into mindless, to use Ranger's word, name-calling, the more your points are diminished.

I enjoy reading both your opinions, and I hope you guys get back to debating as soon as you are done threatening each other.

[SwamP_ThinG]

Uh, didn´t this thread started out with people urging to calm down a notch or two? Well, things couldn´t be any calmer now...
How did it got so fucked up?

[yankeefan1970]

Originally Posted by Startup

Seriously, I would never censor a good flame war, but I think you both need to take a moment and wonder why you are letting yourselves entertain violent thoughts toward each other.

I enjoy reading both your opinions, and I hope you guys get back to debating as soon as you are done threatening each other.

Just to make things clear, I have never entertained nor expressed, the use of violence against Ranger or anyone else for that matter. Read the threads, I have NEVER made any statements that even come close to wanting to beat Ranger. I think his comment about visiting violence on me if given the chance was so far out of line that I find it hard to even comment on.

I would LOVE to get back to posting opinions and debating on ISSUES. I just have an issue with the personal attacks. Drop those, and we can get down to actual discussions. We might even learn something from each other.

Remember that one guy on SR who could never leave the word "democratic" out of any conversation? You'd ask him a pointed question, and each response was a new attempt at seeing how many times he could insert the word "democratic" (can't remember his handle for the life of me). After a few posts, it got annoying as hell and the guy lost any credibility he had. Ranger, and his constant theme of personal attacks, and now violence, is equally annoying. It really has no place in a civil debate.

[Startup]

Originally Posted by yankeefan1970

Just to make things clear, I have never entertained nor expressed, the use of violence against Ranger or anyone else for that matter. Read the threads, I have NEVER made any statements that even come close to wanting to beat Ranger. I think his comment about visiting violence on me if given the chance was so far out of line that I find it hard to even comment on.

I did read the threads. I was just trying to inject a bit of humor in a thread that desperately needed it.