Hurricane Katrina has brought to light some of the darker aspects of society. Whether one live in the United States or not, one can see that there has been much good, but also much bad that has occurred there.

There are stories of rescues, heroism, charitable giving, etc. There are also stories of looting in the cities, rapes and murders (even of children) in the shelters such as the Superdome and Convention Center, breaking and entering into people's homes, etc.

Where was the government to prevent these things? Where were the police? The sad fact is that even if they had been present in the Superdome, the Convention Center or in the neighborhoods, they simply couldn't have stopped what happened. The looting occurred where the police weren't. This is always the case because when the police show up, the looters scatter (or they have lookouts). There were simply too many refugees in the shelters for police to adequately protect them, even if they had been there.

The state will bear no liability for these crimes. Simply put, the state never promises protection from criminals. It will do its best to try to protect citizens, but it knows that it cannot do it 100% effectively and therefore it makes no promise and carries no responsibility. After all, it is the criminals who are responsible for their own actions, right?

The reality (IMHO) is that we, as citizens, need to protect ourselves. That isn't to say that the police and government in general won't help, but we simply cannot rely on them to do it for us. I know that if I'm ever involved in a tragic situation like the aftermath of a hurricane, I'll be better prepared. I'll have my own transportation. I'll be equipped for my own sustenance and evacutation if necessary. I'll be armed against the criminals who inevitably follow such events.

The founding fathers of the United States knew this. They made provision for civilians to defend themselves. Too many people have ignored this and those who have are at the mercy of the criminals.

Am I right? Can the Government and police protect us? Was New Orleans just an aberration?

-- Jeff

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"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem." --Ronald Reagan

One only has themself to blame for security. I think people should better prepare for looting in the future, esp. in high natural disaster areas. Arming oneself may or may not be the answer.

Why the hell do people live next to the ocean or volcanos or tornado alley when they Know it's only matter of time before another disaster hits? People are so stupid. apperently no ones ever read the story of "The Man who built his house on sand." lol;)

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Don't build your city below sea level.

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Get me a hardtop with a decent engine, and make sure it's got a big trunk.

I think the astonishing thing about this whole ordeal is how many people were still in New Orleans when Katrina hit. I heard about Katrina before it hit and whatnot, and when you know there's a bad hurricane coming, and you live in a bowl, it's a good idea to get your ass out of there.

As for looting and police and whatnot, the problem is that when all hell breaks loose and the world turns to anarchy, people will do anything to survive and live the best life they can, in their eyes.

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Right, let's not arm ourselves and then we can negotiate with the looters. That'll work, right?

When people choose to commit crimes, and the police cannot be relied on to stop them, then citizens must take their own steps to stop them. What will stop a determined looter, rapist, murder, etc? Even when there is no disaster, if someone wants to injur another person, what is going to stop them? Is it reasonable to think that civilians can talk criminals out of their intentions? It may happen some of the time, but is it likely? I think arming oneself is the only answer.
Good question, very good question. One reason, oddly enough, is that it isn't too expensive to do so. People like living near the ocean. They like it so much that they're willing to pay a premium for doing so.
The truth, however, is that insurance companies make this possible. They do this by using "risk leveling." They know that a high-risk area is likely going to be hit at some point, so they should charge higher premiums, but those premiums would have to be so high that people wouldn't buy. Instead, the insurance companies overcharge low-risk areas so that the premiums could be lowered for the high-risk areas. The result is that people can "afford" these locations at the expense of people in lower risk areas who pay higher premiums to cover for these people.
The government also contributes. Government flood insurance is also artificially low for these areas and the existence of FEMA gives people the idea that the government will step in and fix things, so why not live in a high-risk area? Government (state, federal, etc.) also subsidizes some of the risk by granting low interest loans for development, especially in high risk areas (because banks are smart enough not to loan at decent rates in these areas).
So it isn't too expensive, if it were, fewer people would do it and those who couldn't afford it would move to lower risk areas. It really comes down to choice, however. These high risk areas tend to be green. They tend to have decent humidity levels and pretty good weather year round (except in the extreme cases such as a Hurricane). In short, people like living near the ocean and most of the time, there aren't any real problems.

You are right, however that people don't generally learn from history or parables. They listen to the story and think "that won't happen to me."

-- Jeff

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"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem." --Ronald Reagan

Well, it is estimated that around 150,000 people in New Orleans don't have any means of transportation (they don't have a car). How were they supposed to get out? The city council didn't provide any means for their evacuation (yet another reason not to rely on government).

Sure, people will do anything to survive, but much of the looting wasn't about survival.
see this article
Certainly the rapes and murders weren't about survival.

The victims were victims largely because they didn't have the means to protect themselves. If they had the means, they wouldn't have become victims, would they?

-- Jeff

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"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem." --Ronald Reagan

Maybe it's just me, but if I lived in a giant bowl, and we were expecting a bad hurricane, assuming I couldn't get public transportation, I'd either try to hitch a ride, or in all honesty I might actually just start walking if all else failed. Or find some place that might not be that bad. But people that stay in their own home, then climb to the attic to avoid the water, then drown because the water rose are just plain dumb.

Which is why I added the phrase "and live the best life they can." Sure, they might not need a 50" plasma TV, but why not get one for free?

As for the rapes and murders, we'll just chalk that up to people being crazy and retarded.

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Nonetheless, this thread wasn't really about the criminals, instead it was this: What should honest, law abiding citizens do to protect themselves from these "crazy and retarded" people? In other words, assume you're in a situation where a criminal is, for whatever reason, attempting to do you harm? The sad fact is that even when we don't have a hurricane situation, the police aren't likely to be around. What are you going to do? Who are you going to turn to?
Do you agree that we should protect ourselves (e.g. arm ourselves)? Do you have an alternative?

-- Jeff

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"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem." --Ronald Reagan

you could always turn the other cheek,lol:P

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First off let me just say to Zteccc(can I just call you Z?) that you seem to have alot of common sense in my opinion. Now, as far as the protection from Katrina goes, this is what I have to say.

I think it is fairly obvious to everyone that Katrina was a major disaster that killed thousands and left thousands more without homes. I think it is also fairly obvious that the people that were left in the city of New Orleans did not recieve that proper help that they needed. Now, I do take notice to the fact that many, many people stayed and many of them did and did not have the proper means of transportation to leave the city. I also take notice to the fact that everyone living in New Orleans knew that the entire city was below sea level and were firmly aware of the fact that one day the disaster that they witnessed would take place. Now, despite all of that, the point of the matter is that there were and still are American people in that city that were and still are in desperate need of help and they are not getting it. I personally cannot put my finger on why this entire scenarion is happening but I do know that it is not right. When people are in help, regardless if they were too stupid to evacuate or simply didn't have the means neccessary to do so, this country is supposed to help them. If another country is in trouble and their people are dying of starvation and dehidration, this country will have supplies delievered to them within twenty four hours in most cases. With that said, I cannot see how we can not get the proper supplies to people in our own country when they need them. Like I said before, I don't know what is going on but I do know that is is not right.

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