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Old 03-24-2004, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by fatboy
So, what would be changed? What if the changes requested are either impossible or simply not acceptable to any reasonable person?
Then such demands would not be supported by common people worldwide, leaving the terrorist organizations in overwhelming minority, with little, if any, ability to inflict harm

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Meddling in their domestic affairs.
So, if the US were to to cease meddling in their domestic affairs, that would make your country much more respected, wouldn't it?
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Old 03-24-2004, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Aether
So, if the US were to to cease meddling in their domestic affairs, that would make your country much more respected, wouldn't it?
I don't think it would do much to heal the wounds of this generation, but it would begin a process that would bear fruit down the road.
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Old 03-24-2004, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Aether
Then such demands would not be supported by common people worldwide, leaving the terrorist organizations in overwhelming minority, with little, if any, ability to inflict harm
The Palestinians demand, in part, that the Jews be killed and Israel be wiped off the map. Without this they will continue to send their 16 year old kids out to blow up Jews. Their opinion is in the overwhelming minority and yet they can still inflict tremendous harm.
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So, if the US were to to cease meddling in their domestic affairs, that would make your country much more respected, wouldn't it?
Yes, of course. It wouldn't stop Jihadists or fundamentalist Muslims like bin Laden though.
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Old 03-24-2004, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by fatboy
The Palestinians demand, in part, that the Jews be killed and Israel be wiped off the map. Without this they will continue to send their 16 year old kids out to blow up Jews. Their opinion is in the overwhelming minority and yet they can still inflict tremendous harm.
14 year olds.
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Old 03-24-2004, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatboy
The Palestinians demand, in part, that the Jews be killed and Israel be wiped off the map. Without this they will continue to send their 16 year old kids out to blow up Jews. Their opinion is in the overwhelming minority and yet they can still inflict tremendous harm.

Not entirely correct. Initially, there were relatively few Palestinians with fanatical beleives about killing all Jews and eliminating the state of Israel. Most Palestinians, I think, would be very happy if only were they given their own state. However, with every Israeli attack, the number of terrorist sypathizers grows, tantamount to the situation in Israel, where the supporters of tough measures against Palestinians embrace more people after each terrorist attack. The only way out of this is for one side to make a first step. A real step. But, like I said before, this conflict is a mess; neither side really wants peace

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Yes, of course. It wouldn't stop Jihadists or fundamentalist Muslims like bin Laden though
No, it wouldn't. But if the Islamists are not supported by the majority of Muslims, acting against them will probably not cause universal outrage
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Old 03-24-2004, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Aether
Not entirely correct. Initially, there were relatively few Palestinians with fanatical beleives about killing all Jews and eliminating the state of Israel. Most Palestinians, I think, would be very happy if only were they given their own state. However, with every Israeli attack, the number of terrorist sypathizers grows, tantamount to the situation in Israel, where the supporters of tough measures against Palestinians embrace more people after each terrorist attack. The only way out of this is for one side to make a first step. A real step. But, like I said before, this conflict is a mess; neither side really wants peace
But most Palestinians aren't murdering Jews. We're talking about solutions to terrorism. If Israel stopped retaliating for every blown-up bus and eatery, Hamas would continue to blow-up busses and eateries. In fact, they would think they'd had a great success; they could continue to pursue their goal of every Jew dead without risking their own lives. Would the common Palestinian stop it? No, they don't have the leadership or the organization to stop it.
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But if the Islamists are not supported by the majority of Muslims, acting against them will probably not cause universal outrage
How would we ever act against them? Assassinate them? No way - we'll be accused of going anywhere, anytime, and taking the law into our own hands. Arrest them? Right. At what cost in lives to us and with what success rate? They kill 3000 of ours and we sentence one of theirs (if we catch them) to life in prison IF they get sentenced at all. Will a Muslim court EVER side with a secular court? No way - they are under Allah's law, we are under man's law; Allah's law is supreme.

Until there is a real rule of law, real personal freedom, and real economic freedom in the Middle East we will always be the Great Satan and any actions we take against terrorists will be met with outrage and more threats.
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Old 03-24-2004, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by fatboy
But most Palestinians aren't murdering Jews. We're talking about solutions to terrorism. If Israel stopped retaliating for every blown-up bus and eatery, Hamas would continue to blow-up busses and eateries. In fact, they would think they'd had a great success; they could continue to pursue their goal of every Jew dead without risking their own lives. Would the common Palestinian stop it? No, they don't have the leadership or the organization to stop it.
RAMALLAH, West Bank -- With many Israelis calling for his ouster and warplanes bombing the symbols of his power, Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat insisted yesterday that he will not shy away from a confrontation with the militant Hamas and Islamic Jihad groups to revive what hope remains for peace in the region.
In an interview with The Associated Press in his headquarters in the West Bank city of Ramallah, Arafat said the Palestinian police have arrested 17 key militants out of a list of 33 presented to him by American officials, and said he will continue pursuing the rest despite the continuing Israeli air strikes.
Asked whether he would be prepared to face down resistance by the militants and their growing legions of supporters, Arafat smiled and said: "You are speaking with Yasser Arafat. I know how to do it. I know how to do it."


http://www.s-t.com/daily/12-01/12-09-01/b04wn112.htm

As we both know, this iniciative was not terribly successful - becuase terrorist organizations are widely supported and because trying to cripple them from within is likely to cause a civil war. But there is a will to confront them, given the right circumstances.

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How would we ever act against them? Assassinate them? No way - we'll be accused of going anywhere, anytime, and taking the law into our own hands. Arrest them? Right. At what cost in lives to us and with what success rate? They kill 3000 of ours and we sentence one of theirs (if we catch them) to life in prison IF they get sentenced at all. Will a Muslim court EVER side with a secular court? No way - they are under Allah's law, we are under man's law; Allah's law is supreme.
You would probably not need to act against them at all. An organization without considerable financial support would never be able to organize something as complex as the 9/11 attack
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Old 03-24-2004, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Aether
But there is a will to confront them, given the right circumstances.
How can you say that? As you pointed out, this article is over 2 years old. I find it hard to believe that an honest, directed, eager, and aggressive effort to stop terrorism within your own borders would not be successful. If Arafat ever put an end to Hamas he would be out of a job.

We're really skirting the boundary of the causes of terrorism and I feel that will take us off topic. I just can't agree that if Israel or the US simply stopped retaliating for terrorist actions or simply removed themselves from a few strips of land that the terrorism would stop.
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You would probably not need to act against them at all. An organization without considerable financial support would never be able to organize something as complex as the 9/11 attack
It might not be as complex as 9.11 but there would still be organizations funding and committing terrorist acts. What do you do about them? Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that ALL terrorism could be eradicated. I am suggesting that organizations that exist to promote and plan terrorist acts can be eliminated. It is these organizations that will take the path of least resistance and emigrate to countries where terrorist bases are tolerated. The entire world can condemn them, but if no one acts against them they will continue to pursue their goals at will.
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Old 03-24-2004, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by fatboy
How can you say that? As you pointed out, this article is over 2 years old. I find it hard to believe that an honest, directed, eager, and aggressive effort to stop terrorism within your own borders would not be successful. If Arafat ever put an end to Hamas he would be out of a job.
Maybe it would be successful. Maybe the terrorist structures would be able to gather more followers and overthrow Arafat's administration. Maybe it would all end in civil war. We just don't know.

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We're really skirting the boundary of the causes of terrorism and I feel that will take us off topic. I just can't agree that if Israel or the US simply stopped retaliating for terrorist actions or simply removed themselves from a few strips of land that the terrorism would stop.
Fine. What's your solution?

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It might not be as complex as 9.11 but there would still be organizations funding and committing terrorist acts.
I don't recall US being attacked by some minor organization...
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What do you do about them? Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that ALL terrorism could be eradicated. I am suggesting that organizations that exist to promote and plan terrorist acts can be eliminated. It is these organizations that will take the path of least resistance and emigrate to countries where terrorist bases are tolerated. The entire world can condemn them, but if no one acts against them they will continue to pursue their goals at will.
If entire world condemns them, no one would be against your country using reasonable force to eliminate the threat.
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Old 03-24-2004, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aether
Maybe it would be successful. Maybe the terrorist structures would be able to gather more followers and overthrow Arafat's administration. Maybe it would all end in civil war. We just don't know.
Maybe.
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Fine. What's your solution?
I think some international body needs to come together and agree upon what exactly will not be tolerated. If there are countries that don't want to play along then decisive action needs to be taken against their leadership. For example: this international body just might say, "Israel - no more wall, no more retaliatory strikes, no more assassinations and here's what land you're going to give back. Palestine - you are now a state, start acting like one. Get some leadership, let your people pick it. No more suicide bombers. The Jews are here to stay. If either of you can't fix it, we'll come in and take over your police force and your defense. US - no more coups, no more invasions. If we find out you've meddle in any foreign governments there will be a world-wide embargo on your products. Russia - give the Chechens independence or we'll put a world-wide embargo on your products. Chechens - if you don't stop the terrorism we'll come in and take over your police force and your defense."

I don't mean to sound simplistic but the rules about terrorism and oppression need to be clear-cut and there needs to be a unified, world-wide voice that has the will and the ability to enforce its decisions.
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I don't recall US being attacked by some minor organization...
It's coming.
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If entire world condemns them, no one would be against your country using reasonable force to eliminate the threat.
What is reasonable to us if far from reasonable to them. Consider CAIR's (Council on American-Islamic Relations) response to Yassin's assassination: they of couse condemn Israel's actions and go on to say that the international community must "take concrete steps to help protect the Palestinian people against such wanton Israeli violence."

Yet they never say that the international community should take concrete steps to help protect the Israeli people against suicide bombers. They never point out that Hamas's stated goal is the death of every Jew in Israel. What could get more "wanton" than that?
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