To add to this discussion, Spain announced that they will be pulling troops in Iraq. They did'nt have a large force and I don't believe it has much to do with Osama's offer, but more to do with the Madrid bombings and the subsequent change in government following this. But Al Quaida will see this as a victory no less.

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Arsenal FC


Gooner Till I Die

I believe the question in every politician´s mind is wether to talk to terrorists or not, let alone "negotiate".
But it brings up an interesting point:
Should we refrain from talking to such groups? Should we not sit at a table and work things out? If things are not discussed, what hope is there to ever solve anything?
We have clearly witnessed how weapons and military power doesn´t solve a damn thing, so what other way is there to settle diferences?
Like it or not, these so-called "terrorist" groups are driven by political issues, and where else do political issues get settled, other than the negotiation table?
As someone once said, "war is the continuation of politics by other means".
As hard and nauseating as it can be, talks between such groups and governments must be kept flowing, otherwise we risk situations such as Israel today.
Therefore, i wouldn´t agree to Europe submiting to the wills of those groups, but i would definitely encourage negotiations and peace talks. Like it or not, these groups are not going to disappear just because we wish them to. They are a force to be reckoned with. Besides, these groups are scattered, decentralized, and wear no uniform, nor have they a flag to fight under, or an army you can destroy. It is foolish to try to conquer or destroy them using war tactics, when we know it will never work. Afghanista and Iraq are great examples of such innability.

As soon as governments aknowledge the existence of these groups, and that those groups represent the wishes of a sizable portion of the population, the obvious next step is the creation of a political arm. Northern Ireland is another good example. The IRA established the Shein Feinn, the UK government agreed to some key reivindications, and the IRA practically died because it had outlived its usefullness. Only the political arm remained. And what do you think was the reason for the IRA´s disapperence? Exactlly, they conducted talks. They sat down and talked things out. What the UK failed to achieve, after decades of bombs, soldiers and shootouts, was obtained within a year or two of solid conversations. As soon as the british government decided to drop the warlike atitude and decided to adopt a more diplomatic atitude, things managed to fall into place on their own.
Now, for the sake of discussion, it seems the british government is thinking about banning Shein Feinn altogether, just like Aznar did with ETA´S Batassuna. And you know what that will cause? Yup, the resurfacing of the armed wing of IRA. Makes you wonder, doesn´t it?

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"Quincitilius Varus, give me back my legions!"
Emperor Augustus of Rome.

Shein Feinn?? Are they a new party?
There is absolutely no comparison between Batasuna and Sinn Feinn, as there is no real comparison between the Irish struggle and that of the Basque Country. The reasons for banning Batasuna are not the same as those Blair is contemplating.
Hakzoid: Zapatero pledged to pull the troops out over a year ago, so all he is doing is, and strangely enough for a politician, keeping his pledge true.

No. In the absence of negotiations we'll have to pursue war.

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In this country, we don't need reasons to make things legal; we need reasons to make things illegal. - Startup

I didnt mean it like that. Arabs want you out of middle east and you wont comply bc you fear that if you comply they will ask for more. It just sounds stupid...
Two major powers attacking (decimated by sanctions) third world country doesnt qualify as a WW3. Bin Ladens offer was extended to those that are ocupying Iraq...

You got the point, didn´t you? So why are you trying to be funny?

How so? Why aren´t they comparable? They are both marginal groups, using terror tactics to achieve independence from the larger power, so what is there that can´t be compared?

They are exactly the same, only the means used to achieve it were diferent.
The end result desired by both governments is exactlly the same: the complete banning of the political branch of both movements.

I take it from your words that you are totally opposite to conducting talks with such groups, aren´t you? If so, i´ll ask you two things:
-Do you agree Israel should conductt talks with the palestinian radical groups?
and
-Do you agree or disagree with a "war on terrorism" being fought with tanks and planes?

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"Quincitilius Varus, give me back my legions!"
Emperor Augustus of Rome.

@fatboy

When you say that Europe is not "at war" with al' Quaida you seem to imply that our member states have taken no measures against this organization. That is quite thoroughly false. Additionally, your suggestion that Europe would even consider such an offer is rather insulting. Well, that was your intention, I suppose.

my observations indicate quite the contrary and i am not even talking about removing hitler by military force.
before 9/11 the usa had gone out of her way to be nice to prety much everyone, record sums of foreign aid and huge amounts of food aid were comming from the usa only that the flags that were printed on the bags with grain sent as aid were used to publicly burn them in the streets of the countries receiving it. and as a result the usa were hit with one attack after another, from the bombing of the barracks in beirut to the first wtc bombing to african embassy bombings, to attempted bombing of LAX, to attack on the uss cole, there were so many i lost track. and each time there was no or little response, that emboldened the terrorists. bin laden himself wrote that in his 'declaration of war', that the fact that the usa were not willing to fight back in somalia and other places convinced him even more of their corruption and decadence.
now, that people, who make threats against america and their accomplices, are actualy being gone after with military force there has not yet been another attack against america.

the new government is just following through on what it said it would do if elected and a majority of the spaniards were against spanish troops in iraq from the begining iirc, however the soldiers themselves think withdrawal is a mistakehttp://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040420/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_spain_troops&cid=1514&ncid=1473

btw al quaida has already declared it wants to win back andalusia for islam, rolling back the reconquista.

no, it is not. too many here in europe still see al quaida as criminals and terrorism as a law enforcement issue, that the police can fight with courts, extradition laws and indictments, when in fact it is war.

i tend to agree with swamp_thing. i find it rather childish not to talk to such
groups. the message should be "we talk to all groups and take their requests
into consideration. if they use terror tactics, then we will be less likely to give
in to their requests."

the problem with this is that you really need to live this and it uses a lot of
time and causes trouble. i still think that it would be worth while, if people
would realize that they don't need to resort to terrorist attacks to be heard.

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There is some kind of intellectual fashion behind what brings European socialist governments and media (except UK who doesn't and France who does) to trade and talk with terrorists instead of trying to prevent their mischieves against the people who elect them. This is very weird. I'd call that the Stockholm syndrome among European politicians. French minister of the Interior debated publicly with an Islamic activist supporting Al Qaeda and whose brother is a terrorist leader of that organization in Egypt. That minister talked very kindly to the Islamist but shouted as hell against the populist french leader of the French National Front. That minister may be the next elected French president after Chirac.
I am also very worried by the cowardice of the Spaniards which shows these people have no democratic beliefs in the way we understand them.
One week before election the right wing party was sure to win and after that revolting bombing the socialist candidate who was trying to desperately use the needed peacekeeping mission in Iraq got votes from the cowards. I am trying to think of another country were this would have been positive for him.

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From SR