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Old 10-01-2004, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diablo
This may surprise you, but if you did, then I wouldn't mind. Though this could turn into a religious debate, which we have enough threads for, since I don't believe in an afterlife or reincarnation, so once a person dies the corpse is simply an object. It's no way worse than say, having sex with a pie.

The main reason laws are made, is because the illegal offense hurts either the offender or the victim, or others around them. Take for example the use of illegal drugs. Those drugs are illegal because they are addictive and can kill a person. Most other illegal offenses are illegal because they hurt, whether it be emotionally or physically, or in other ways, such as stealing their possessions, another person. Necrophilia is no more dangerous than having sex with a living person. It does not affect anyone else. Therefore, I see no reason to make it illegal. I also see no reason to force people into going to counseling, because, like laws, most counseling are for things that can eventually hurt them, such as alcoholism, drug addiction, mental problems, etc.
I am pretty sure if the family of the dead person found out some sick fuck had sex with your corpse they would be "mentally hurt".
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Old 10-01-2004, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by zteccc
I also believe they need psychiatric help. We agree on that. I simply think that making them criminals doesn't get us there. Making these people criminals gets them in jail or in prison or fined. There aren't laws against (most) perversion simply because making them criminals simply cannot help them.

People either want to change or they don't. If they don't want to change, no amount of laws or counseling will change them. If they do, they'll likely seek their own counseling. I believe it is reasonable for them to be prosecuted for breaking and entering, but prosecuting someone for having different tendencies is not going to solve things, likely it will make them worse.

By the way, we don't prosecute people because they might do something. Yes, someone who practices S&M might eventually commit rape, but we cannot arrest them or prosecute them for rape until they attempt it because we don't know that they will, only that they might.

Let me ask you the following about the law against necrophilia:
1) Is it a sexual crime?
2) Who is the victim/injured?
3) What is the damage done?
4) Should it be a felony or a misdemeanor?
5) What should the sentence be? Remember, we're talking about crime here, so counseling is not an appropriate sentence, only incarceration (which can include counseling) or fines.
6) What is the threat to or negative impact on society (generally with laws about morals, they are passed because of a threat to or negative impact on society)?
7) How should it be enforced? In other words, should the police be able to look into someone's bedroom who they suspect of practicing necrophilia? What evidence would the police need for a warrant? Should cameras be set up in all places where dead people are commonly found (e.g. morgues, funeral homes, etc)?

It isn't that I'm supporting necrophilia. I'm against adding more laws in general and specifically ones that cannot show a great benefit.

-- Jeff
Personally, I feel it is a felony. Though the person who is dead may not be injured....then again how do we know what goes on with our beings once we have passed??? The family of the deceased would definitely be injured emotionally. These people need to be prosecuted under a felony and sentenced to incarceration in a mental institute!
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2004, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giggley_Girl
Personally, I feel it is a felony. Though the person who is dead may not be injured....then again how do we know what goes on with our beings once we have passed??? The family of the deceased would definitely be injured emotionally. These people need to be prosecuted under a felony and sentenced to incarceration in a mental institute!
Ok, let's call it a felony. The consequences of a felony are:
1) A minimum of 1 year and 1 day incarceration (possibly in a mental wing of a prison or in a hospital for the criminally insane).
2) Loss of certain citizenship rights including the right to vote or hold public office.
3) A criminal record which will make it difficul for the offender to hold a job and make it impossible for the offender to hold certain jobs.

Now, from a logical standpoint, is this an appropriate penalty for one who is admittedly disturbed but whose only negative act is to have sex with a corpse?

Next we look at the "injured". The family suffers mental anguish (assuming they ever find out). That is grounds for a civil case, but not necessarily grounds for a criminal case. Without personal injury or property damage, no crime has acutally been comitted. So again, you have two choices, either the corpse is a person with rights (and therefore the corpse is the victim), or the corpse is "property". Which is it?

I'd also like to see your answers to the rest of the questions I've posed. For example, you wrote that they need to be incarcerated to a "mental institute" [sic], but for how long? Under what conditions should they be released? How do we evalutate the success of their rehabilitiation?

I'm also really interested in what you see the damage to society their "crime" is.

Normally, laws (especially moralistic ones) are written to deal with some important negative impact to society. For example, laws banning smoking in restaurants in California, were passed largely because of the negative impact that smoke, including secondhand smoke, has on health. In short, society's "right" to remain healthy superceded the right of smokers to smoke in a restaurant. This is very important. Without such a negative impact to society, then the "crime", if any, would simply be an unreasonable suspension of freedom.

Personally, I suspect that if necrophilia is to be considered a crime, that at the worst it should be a misdemeanor. That said, we'd still be attaching a criminal record to someone because of mental illness. Generally speaking, being ill is not a crime, so you'd be opening a can of worms by doing that (how long before other illnesses were considered crimes?).

-- Jeff
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2004, 07:19 AM
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are you still thinking about it, Giggley_Girl?
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Old 10-16-2004, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zteccc
Ok, let's call it a felony. The consequences of a felony are:
1) A minimum of 1 year and 1 day incarceration (possibly in a mental wing of a prison or in a hospital for the criminally insane).
2) Loss of certain citizenship rights including the right to vote or hold public office.
3) A criminal record which will make it difficul for the offender to hold a job and make it impossible for the offender to hold certain jobs.

Now, from a logical standpoint, is this an appropriate penalty for one who is admittedly disturbed but whose only negative act is to have sex with a corpse?

Next we look at the "injured". The family suffers mental anguish (assuming they ever find out). That is grounds for a civil case, but not necessarily grounds for a criminal case. Without personal injury or property damage, no crime has acutally been comitted. So again, you have two choices, either the corpse is a person with rights (and therefore the corpse is the victim), or the corpse is "property". Which is it?

I'd also like to see your answers to the rest of the questions I've posed. For example, you wrote that they need to be incarcerated to a "mental institute" [sic], but for how long? Under what conditions should they be released? How do we evalutate the success of their rehabilitiation?

I'm also really interested in what you see the damage to society their "crime" is.

Normally, laws (especially moralistic ones) are written to deal with some important negative impact to society. For example, laws banning smoking in restaurants in California, were passed largely because of the negative impact that smoke, including secondhand smoke, has on health. In short, society's "right" to remain healthy superceded the right of smokers to smoke in a restaurant. This is very important. Without such a negative impact to society, then the "crime", if any, would simply be an unreasonable suspension of freedom.

Personally, I suspect that if necrophilia is to be considered a crime, that at the worst it should be a misdemeanor. That said, we'd still be attaching a criminal record to someone because of mental illness. Generally speaking, being ill is not a crime, so you'd be opening a can of worms by doing that (how long before other illnesses were considered crimes?).

-- Jeff
Ok Jeff......do you have children????? I know if my child died, that would be horor enough!! To find out that thier body had been sexually violated by some sick pervert....would drive any parent over the line!!! If appropriate laes are not put into place, you would be asking for major trouble!!! People would start taking the law into thier own hands!! I would kill the sick asshole that did that to my child or family member if the judicial system did not impose a strick sentence on them!! ANY parent out there would be driven to extract some for of punishment from the guilty party!!!!

As for what the penalty should be...that would take more than just a moment in time to determine....I do say that a minimum sentence should be incarceration to a mental facility...the time frame of that incarceration I have not decided on. As to what phase of thier rehabilitation would they be considered safe to society and released....I am not a phyciatrist so I am not well enough educated to consider making a diagnosis for that.

In today's society, we can lock someone up for doing drugs...(not that I ampove of drug use)......but someone that violates not only the body of a loved one...but creates considerable mental anguish to the family through saturating thier memories of that loved one being grossly violated!!

As for the impact on society they may have........do you want someone with that mental condition in your house??? Standing beside your child in the grocery store.....working in the morgue...the funeral home????? Should they be allowed to hold positions such as those I mentioned??? Should they not be classified as a sexual offender????
Would you want someone who has committed this sick act running for office in your Country...let alone running the country......I would think not....and in my belief thier mind is indeed mentaly incapacitated...therefor: unable to make sound decisions as to who would be appropriate to sit in office....hence..they should have thier voting rights revoked!

We may have to agree to dissagree on this subject matter, as I will never...NEVER waver from my moralistic views on this point!!
I agree you have the right to your opinion as well, and in your world it is right...as in my world mine is.....neither being right....neither being wrong.
I thank you for your views and appreciate the great thought that you have dedicated to this subject, and do not disrespect your views, only disagree.

Yours truly
Victoria
aka Giggley Girl
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Old 10-17-2004, 04:42 AM
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Smells good democracy here
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Old 10-17-2004, 02:06 PM
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Thanks!!! That is the way it should be!
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Old 10-19-2004, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giggley_Girl
Ok Jeff......do you have children????? I know if my child died, that would be horor enough!! To find out that thier body had been sexually violated by some sick pervert....would drive any parent over the line!!! If appropriate laes are not put into place, you would be asking for major trouble!!! People would start taking the law into thier own hands!! I would kill the sick asshole that did that to my child or family member if the judicial system did not impose a strick sentence on them!! ANY parent out there would be driven to extract some for of punishment from the guilty party!!!!
Yes, I have two children. I love them dearly. If either of my children died, or my wife, my mother, sister, father, etc. it would be a devastating situation to me. Once they are dead, however, I belive that they don't inhabit their body any longer. Their soul has moved on. The corpse is not them. Your response here is understandable and emotional, but it isn't a basis for law (unfortunately). According to the article that started this discussion, this situation has occurred (as far as we know) a handful of times in the last decade and yet the legislature spent two years to draft this law (instead of focusing on crimes that are really a big problem). I agree that this is a handful of times too much. Still, these people who are (by your own posts) sick, are going to be felons for this behavior, and yet there is no injury to a living person or to property in this situation (according to your statement above, you find this to be a sexual crime, California agrees, but sexual crimes are against living people, expect appeals on this basis).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giggley_Girl
As for what the penalty should be...that would take more than just a moment in time to determine....I do say that a minimum sentence should be incarceration to a mental facility...the time frame of that incarceration I have not decided on. As to what phase of thier rehabilitation would they be considered safe to society and released....I am not a phyciatrist so I am not well enough educated to consider making a diagnosis for that.
The California law quoted specifies a penalty of up to 8 years in prison, not a mental facility. Additionally, since this is indeed classified as a sexual crime, that person will have to register as a sex offender wherever they live. Let me restate: the law specifies that a sexual activity with a non-living object is a felony that requires up to 8 years in prison, but doesn't require any counseling. Is this the right solution for an admittedly ill person? Since when did illness (even mental illness) become a crime? I'm with you, the action is reprehensible, but consider that these people have a specific and selective bent that endangers nobody except themselves. These people need doctors, granted, but do they need a felony record?

What is more disturbing about this is that the legislature has passed a law prohibiting a sexual practice that, having no living victim, could be considered to be consentual (all of the living partcipants consented). Recently, the Supreme Court rejected the idea that sodomy (another consentual act) could be outlawed because of privacy rights, so this opens the extreme likelihood that if someone performs necrophilia in a private place (such as their bedroom), especially with someone they knew and were involved with, that it will be protected, voiding this law. I'm pretty sure we all don't want the Supreme Court making this ruling, but mark my words, this law will result in the Supreme Court being petitioned to hear this case, and based on prior case law, they might have no choice but to overturn it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giggley_Girl
In today's society, we can lock someone up for doing drugs...(not that I ampove of drug use)......but someone that violates not only the body of a loved one...but creates considerable mental anguish to the family through saturating thier memories of that loved one being grossly violated!!
It is interesting that you mention this. I agree that the family does suffer (if they find out about this). On the other hand, I suspect that funeral homes and the police would likely try to keep this sort of thing quiet precisely for the purpose of sparing the family. Legally, the body is not living. It has no rights and cannot be violated. This law, however gives the corpse rights. This raises the question of how far the rights of a corpse go. Does the corpse have a right to consent (in its will, perhaps)? If so, would such consent be a valid defense against this law? The law doesn't specify which leaves a huge legal issue to be resolved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giggley_Girl
As for the impact on society they may have........do you want someone with that mental condition in your house??? Standing beside your child in the grocery store.....working in the morgue...the funeral home????? Should they be allowed to hold positions such as those I mentioned??? Should they not be classified as a sexual offender????
Would you want someone who has committed this sick act running for office in your Country...let alone running the country......I would think not....and in my belief thier mind is indeed mentaly incapacitated...therefor: unable to make sound decisions as to who would be appropriate to sit in office....hence..they should have thier voting rights revoked!
I would want these people to be under psychiatric treatment. I would want them to be considered mentally unfit to stand trial. The law, however, says that they are not mentally incapacitated. In other words, the law declares people who commit necrophilia to be sane and competent. That is, perhaps, the scariest part of this. If the law wasn't passed, a judge could (perhaps should) declare them insane and commit them until a psychiatrist could verify their sanity (decades or even their entire life, until they were "cured"). Instead, the judge now has to call them sane and declare them a felon which means prison and release after no more than 8 years (even if they are still necrophiliacs).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giggley_Girl
We may have to agree to dissagree on this subject matter, as I will never...NEVER waver from my moralistic views on this point!!
I agree you have the right to your opinion as well, and in your world it is right...as in my world mine is.....neither being right....neither being wrong.
I thank you for your views and appreciate the great thought that you have dedicated to this subject, and do not disrespect your views, only disagree.

Yours truly
Victoria
aka Giggley Girl
And I agree with you that necrophilia is a sick practice. It is one of the most disgusting things that people can do. It is evidence of a severe mental imbalance. It is immoral and, if a professional who works with corpses is involved, unethical.
That said, this law is the wrong way to fight it. We've turned this into a legal fight instead of a moral one. We've denied the criminals the treatment they need in favor of the prison cell. We've denied the judges the ability to make a good decision (committing these people until they can be declared sane) and limited them to a bad decision (incarceration).
I'm sorry that legislatures and people in general don't think things through this way. I wish that the California Judges involved had the guts to commit these offenders instead of simply throwing their hands in the air and saying "we can't do anything about this."

It appears, from your post that your biggest problem with this act is that the families learned that their loved ones were violated. To this I would state that the injury to these families was caused by the one who notified them, not by the necrophiliac. Let's face hard facts here. The necrophiliac committed the act, but if nobody ever told the families, would they have evern known? Who brought it up? I mean, really, if a funeral home worker finds a necrophiliac passed out on a corpse (as referenced in the article), calling the police is appropriate, but there is no human decency in notifying the family.
The person (be it the funeral home employee or a policeman) who notified the family instead of protecting them from this information that could do them no good, only harm is largely to blame for the suffering they endure. Please think about this. If the police or funeral home contacted the family and said "a crime was committed at the funeral home and your loved one's corpse is part of the crime scene, so the funeral will have to be delayed by one day", without going into any detail about the crime, the pain and suffering that you reference would be minimal. Sure there would be shock but not that violent horrific rage that you write about.

-- Jeff

ps I really want to be clear. I agree with your moralistic view on this issue and I share it and applaud you for sticking with it. I could not be more opposed to the practice of necrophilia. I just don't think this law was the right solution for this problem.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2004, 05:57 AM
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There is definitively no needs of a law dealing specifically with necrophilia in a democratic context save of course to give work to laws makers and law manipulators.

Let's analyse the situation from a democratic point of view: in most democratic countries, a corpse is considered the private property of the relatives.
That said, everything is said.
Since one of the most worshipped values in democracy is involved, it is just plain as plain to expect democratic people to react a democratic way when one rapes their private property.
How are they expected to react when one is trespassing their property with muddy shoes? Buuurrrrz, bang bang, choke choke, syringe my sweet syringe or whatever. So there is no longer a necrophilia issue.

Case solved.
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Old 10-19-2004, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diablo
It's no way worse than say, having sex with a pie.
reminds me of the Afganistani cake 2..i mean, american pie 2.

havin sex with a dead body is something that is gross and sick. And Diablo..you wouldnt mind if someone did you when you were dead? That is messed up man. If I was alive I would kick their ass and bury them alive..
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