Did you ever hear about the Belgian very complicated constitutional structure? Three different communities are living in this country. The protection of minorities is the basic rule. This could be a clue to resolve the Palestinian - Israelian problem? But the main difference is that we all are from the same ethnicity and religion (main problem 1,000,000 foreigners for a total population of 10,000,000). Anyway this could be a clue but it requires that you go and sit around the table.

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Clever and a huge sense of humor! Be modest Alain, you are a Belgian!

I'm sorry to say that I don't know anything about the Belgian system, although I'd like to know more. Can you summarise for us?

Also, do you think that it would work in the Middle East? As you said, you all have the same ethnicity and religion. That is a big problem in the Middle East.

Frankly, I think any solution will first require that both sides stop killing each other. I hold them both responsible to a certain extent, but it is terrorism that is the real problem. If two nations are fighting, both using militaries, it is possible to call a cease fire that both sides can agree to and then they can sit and discuss. Terrorists don't generally honor cease fires (at least they haven't so far).

-- Jeff

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"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem." --Ronald Reagan

yea i dont know either about the Belgian system..please describe what it is like alain.

Hmmm, just to know. Are you saying that the children and people under 18 blowing themselves up in there are terrorists ? Or are you talking about what the israeli army is doing, things like killing countless innocent and very young palestinian civillians and destroying their homes ?
Personally, I don't feel like continuing this discussion. If you would like to know the whole story I suggest you get you info from other sources(not saying mine is 100% correct). Other sources as in Mulim sources for example. Not general information. Not extremists either but just idle muslim people that have knowledge of this.

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Note that in my post, I didn't say Muslim terrorists or Israeli terrorists. I said terrorists and I didn't specify ethnicity or religion. I also said that I hold both sides responsible.
I deplore terrorist acts regardless of where they are. If a member of a (semi) organized group intentionally targets a civilian (who is not a member of an opposing group), this person is committing a terrorist act. Now if a person is a known military or militant target, they are fair game. For example, if the head of a militant group is driving in his car, that car is a valid military target even if it is driving through a civilian area or even if there are civilians in the car with him. The way most nations deal with this is to remove military people from civilian areas, for example, a soldier in the US army is forbidden from having civilians in a military vehicle, and civilian military contractors know that they will be targets.

In the Israeli-Palestine conflict, the situation is difficult because militants on one side or another merge with the civilians and don't wear uniforms. We know the Israeli army does wear uniforms. I don't doubt that there are Israelis who fight Palestinians who don't wear uniforms. We know that there are some uniformed Palestinians and we know there are some who don't wear uniforms. Those who are not uniformed are still combatants and are valid targets if they can be properly identified. In your statement, you refer to children and people under 18 who blow themselves up. Yes, they are terrorists. I don't believe that there is anything magical that happens when someone turns 18. If a 14 year old becomes a suicide bomber and indiscriminately kills people, that person was a terrorist (and so was the person who sent the 14 year old, and I submit that the 14 year old's parents are responsible as well).

I think that terrorist acts on both sides must stop for peace to ever have a chance. The easiest way to do this is for all militias (on both sides) to be disbanded. Militaries are fine (and necessary), but any other attacks outside of military should be prosecuted by the side that spawned the attack and should be prosecuted harshly.

Now, I don't hear of Israeli terrorist groups. I have heard of the Israeli army making attacks and when those attacks target clearly nonmilitary targets, I believe that the Israeli government must stop them. The UN has passed multiple resolutions (with the US support) against the nation of Israel when necessary. I'd be happy to research any Israeli terrorist group that you might wish to name, I'm sure that there are some out there. I do know, however, that Hamas and Islamic Jihad are groups that are not part of the Palestinian army and are not part of the Palestinian government who do attack civilian targets. These groups must be shut down by the Palestinian Authority for there to be any chance of peace and a settlement in this region.

Skan, you brought up this discussion. I didn't start it or invite it. If it isn't going your way, I'm sorry. We are free here (I believe) to discuss anything and to continue discussions even if the originator doesn't wish it. If you want me to get Muslim takes on this issue, please point me to websites that have (factual) information and I'll be happy to read that information. I'll even be happy to comment on it.

-- Jeff

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"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem." --Ronald Reagan

Hey...instead of being in the middle-east...why not re-name any random state in the U.S Israel and move Israel to the north american continent? Saves alot of time, lives, and money.

Well, we obviously have different takes on this. Because personally, I believe that when, from the moment you are born, you live in a country that was yours, now in a constant state of war. When your relatives are being killed everyday, their houses destroyed by bulldozer, when young children throwing rocks are mercilessly killed, sometimes whole families. I believe when a person suffers that, and goes to blow him/herself up in enemy territory. I think no, they are not terrorists. I think, they should try to be more organized and try to kill enemy leaders. People who order these srtikes on their families.

An Israeli terrorist group, it's one big one. The army. They attack civilians clearly. Unless that has been omited from the news you get wherever you are you probably know that.
You are free to take this discussion wherever you like, if I'm not happy with how it is going I would blame my own ignorance and lack of information. This is my email: mr_makaveli86@hotmail.com
Email me after a while, I will hopefully provide you with a good source on that info. I can't now since I'm on dial up and I'm very busy with studying. Email me if I seem to forget in about two months. I really want you to get the whole picture here.
Thanks for participating in this.

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Well, we obviously have different takes on this. Because personally, I believe that when, from the moment you are born, you live in a country that was yours, now in a constant state of war. When your relatives are being killed everyday, their houses destroyed by bulldozer, when young children throwing rocks are mercilessly killed, sometimes whole families. I believe when a person suffers that, and goes to blow him/herself up in enemy territory. I think no, they are not terrorists. I think, they should try to be more organized and try to kill enemy leaders. People who order these srtikes on their families.

An Israeli terrorist group, it's one big one. The army. They attack civilians clearly. Unless that has been omited from the news you get wherever you are you probably know that.
You are free to take this discussion wherever you like, if I'm not happy with how it is going I would blame my own ignorance and lack of information. This is my email: mr_makaveli86@hotmail.com
Email me after a while, I will hopefully provide you with a good source on that info. I can't now since I'm on dial up and I'm very busy with studying. Email me if I seem to forget in about two months. I really want you to get the whole picture here.
Thanks for participating in this.

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I'll start with the end. I won't be emailing you on this topic. Sorry, but I'm busy enough without yet another thing to pursue (I work for a living, raise a family, maintain my home, occasionally read something interesting and discuss on this board). If you wish to discuss, I'll be here.

The Israeli army is under the control of the Israeli government. That is a pretty important statement because it does mean the army is under control. In general, the army or the government has some justification for the actions they take including the targets that they are pursuing. You've read what I wrote regarding valid targets. I don't often find myself at odds with the targets they've chosen, but you are right, occasionally, they do choose targets that are not valid. As I wrote before, the UN has imposed several resolutions against Iraq and the US has, many times, demanded their withdrawl from areas and has succeeded in this. The difference between an army and a terrorist group is that if an army officer or soldier does commit an act of terrorism, they are prosecuted. We don't see this happening with Hamas.

As I wrote before, I blame both sides in this conflict. Nobody has the moral high ground here. Nobody can say they are the victim. Both need to stop the terrorism.

I'm all for calling a spade a spade. If someone commits a terrorist act, they are terrorists. If they can show a target to be a military target, that would be the only defense. If a 14 year old bombs a military checkpoint, I view this differently than if the 14 year old bombs a restaurant. The checkpoint is a military target, the restaurant, even if it has military people, has civilians, and the bombing would indiscriminately kill these civilians.

I've discussed ownership of the country before, and frankly, very few people are left in this area who were alive prior to this nation being Israel. We know, however, that Israel has stated a willingness to create a state of Palestine. We know that Rabin and Arafat made some great strides towards this happening, and we know that these strides were made over a period of time when neither side committed any terrorist acts. It is possible to have peace in this area, but it requires compromise, patience, a cessation of all terrorist acts, and time.

-- Jeff

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"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem." --Ronald Reagan

Well, there were three reasons that the location was chosen in the 1940s.
1) Israel was not an independent nation at the time, but a territory of the United Kingdom (which the UK was willing to let go), so it was easier to establish the Jewish homeland there (they didn't have to slice up a sovereign nation).
2) Israel is important to the Jewish heritage (and admittedly to the Muslim heritage as well). Since it wasn't a nation at the time, there was no reason not to use it.
3) By the 1940s (prior to the creation of Israel) a large number of Jews had already migrated to this area from Europe, and there was no reason to displace them yet again since the land wasn't a sovereign nation.

-- Jeff

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"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem." --Ronald Reagan