thdevilf, don't misunderstand. Not all Jews are Israelis. Not all Jews want to hurt palestinian people and occupy their country.

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I understand that much yes, but you have to say, the people who are attatched to their country and love their country will probably be one of those "troublesome" people.

I guess.

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Geez, such vitriol for me when you didn't really disagree with what I wrote. We can keep going back in history and see other owners of that territory. I started my history at about the time that Israel was founded by the UN. You went back a bit further, but we both wrote the same facts. The UN did in fact create the state of Israel. It doesn't matter who supported it. The entire General Assembly (that is every country in the UN) voted and resolved that a Jewish state in Palestine should exist. In short, this is the UN's decision (and the UN's mess). Yes, the US recognized Israel quickly, but really so did many other nations (and why shouldn't they since they voted in the UN to form the nation of Israel). For those who voted against Israel and for those who feel displaced, their conflict should be with the UN and not with Israel or the US or any other nation. The UN created this mess and they should be held responsible to help clean it up.

It is understandable that the Arabs were upset with the arrival of Jewish refugees and understandable that they suddenly became the minority in the area. Factually speaking, nobody "stole" any Arab's land to found Palestine. After WWI, the land called Palestine, formerly owned by the Turkish Ottoman Empire was given to the control of the British by the Sykes-Picot Agreement. The land of Palestine was split into an east and western section, the western going to the Jews, and the eastern portion (about 75% of the land) going to the Arabs (which was part of Palestine, but was called Trans-Jordan and later became Jordan). The Arabs who remained in the western areas were encouraged to live there peacefully, but fighting between the Jews and Arabs occurred many times while the British occupied the region (remember, the area was still under British control). Finally, in 1947, the British turned the problem over to the UN. Yes, the UN proposed splitting the western portion of Palestine (remember the eastern portion had become Jordan) into two states, a Jewish state of Israel and an Arab state of Palestine. Remember that this is a split of the Western 25% of the land of Palestine that the British took over from the Turks.

Regardless of who "controls" the UN, let's be honest with our facts. Israel has had many resolutions against it from the UN. Those resolutions are evidence that the UN is not always on Israel's side. The US itself has many times restrained Israel. The US is opposed to the wall that Israel is building, for example. I believe that history shows that the US has tried many times to broker peace agreements and to help in building a Muslim Palestinian state. The US is indeed currently an ally of Israel. There is no need to apologize for that. We help our allies and we do provide them with arms when they want them. The US is also an ally of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Turkey, etc. All of these are Muslim nations. This is not an act of a nation controlled by Jews. For the record, neither of the senators from my state are Jewish. I cannot speak for other states, but in this state, we don't vote for senators because of their ethnic or religious background. I haven't counted, so I can't be sure, but do you have a list of the 51+ US Senators who are Jewish?

In the end, we agree on the facts of the situation, how Israel came to be, but you (understandably) have a different slant on the issue from me.
Honestly, it doesn't matter to me who holds the land. What matters to me is the actions of those in the area. In the 1988, Arafat renounced terrorism. What followed was a decade that was mostly peaceful in the middle east, with accords between Israel and the PLO and some good strides towards a lasting peace. During this time Arafat and Rabin jointly received the Nobel Peace prize for their work together. You didn't read about attacks in either dirction. Change takes time and peace takes time. Apparently things didn't happen quickly enough and the two sides are at war again. I find the situation reprehensible. I find the UN to be responsible for creating this situation. I believe that Arafat cannot control his people, which means that the PLO needs new leadership who can promote peace before this situation is resolved.

-- Jeff

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"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem." --Ronald Reagan

I REALLY AM NOT INTO POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS. So I feel like bashing your head right now. Sorry. I don't know why I posted here anyway.
The numbers refer to paragraphs
1.The UN was probably pressured to creat Israel by a number of parties. Also, of course they voted with that. Countries that have relations with other countries of power try to do the same things and agree to keep those relations problem free.

2.Learn your history better my friend. Nothing was really given away. The sultan of the Ottom Empire refused to give Palestine away to Theodor something. A supporter of starting an Israeli country. he only accepted cuz he was in need of money. Which he was then offered. Yes, they couldn't live in peace. I think it's easy to see why since more and more jews were coming in. Yes, many splits followed. More and more land going to the newcomers.

3.The US always looks for its best interest. It wants to stay cool with more than one side. Whenever the UN proposed something that didn't work so well for Israel. The US used its right to Vito, not allowing it to happen. Of course iy would try making peace agreements. If it had the fucking brains, it would stop supplying Israel with weapons to kill innocent Palestinian citizens. I never said anyone voted based on religon or whatever. I just said most senators support Israel. No, I don't have a list. Nor do I care for getting one. I know the US is an ally...of those countries. That is not the point. The point is that most support originates from mutual benfit? and the fact that many people who have power in the US over this are jewish. If the US saw there was no more need to support Israel cuz it gives them nothing. Support would stop in a heart beat.

4.I don't thin arafat or whoever will help. They want freedom of their country, which is what would really stop the war.
But, whatever. We agree here, disagree there. I don't care.

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And yet you are posting on a politics and religion board.

That's ok, I forgive you.

So now it's "probably". That suggests that you don't really know for sure. Ok, now we're talking about innuendo. You opened this thread with the question "Do you know the truth?" Apparently, you aren't sure.

Ok, I will, During WWI, the Ottoman Empire allied with Germany. The empire had control over much of the Middle East including Palestine/Israel. The British occupied that land during WWI and made an agreement with the French to keep it after the war (the Sykes-Picot agreement that I referenced earlier). The land was formally ceded to the British during the San Remo conference of 1920 (this was a League of Nations conference). The British, during this conference received the mandate to govern Palestine (modern day Israel and Jordan) and Iraq.

Every government looks for their best interests. To do otherwise would be shirking the duty of the governments. Many times the US supported resolutions against Israel and many other times it abstained instead of vetoing the resolutions (feel free to look up the resolutions against Israel on the UN website).
What you actually said was "Most of the US senate is Jewish and what-not". This was in your post on 9/29/2004 where you told me to "OPEN YOUR BRAIN AND PAY ATTENTION TO THIS TRUE LIFE HISTORY LESSON !!!". If you don't stand by that statement any longer (about most senators being Jewish), then fine. I gave you the opportunity to prove it. The statement that most senators support Israel is debatable, but since Israel is an ally of the US, that makes sense. I would also argue that most senators support Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Turkey.
Now you've said that many people in power in the US are Jewish. I answer, so what? Many more people in power in the US are Christian. Still others are atheist and there are many who are Muslim. This mixture helps decide what is best for the United States and currently alliances with many Muslim and one Jewish country are considered in our best interest. Don't forget that as soon as Arafat renounced terrorism, the US immediately stepped in to try to help with the peace process. That's all we want, peace in the land, but we have a policy that we don't have any talks with terrorists, so if the Palestinians want our help, they can have it, they simply have to stop the terrorist tactics.

For someone who doesn't care, you seem awfully angry about this whole thing. Look, I think that you can see from some of my earlier posts (dealing with religion for example) that I'm not anti-Muslim. I'm not posting here to attack the Palestinian people. I suspect that 90% or more of them don't want to be involved with terrorism and only want to live in peace. They made a mistake in leaving their homes (sorry, that's what history said happened, I wasn't there, so I can only read history reports for information). The official Israeli policy is that Muslims are welcome to live in Israel if they want to do so peacefully. Israel and the US have both tried to arrange for a creation of a state of Palestine and the PLO has worked towards this as well. Unfortunately, as long as small groups like Hamas continue to use terrorist tactics, this peace won't come.

-- Jeff

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"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem." --Ronald Reagan

Don't you think that groups like Hamas would disappear if the life conditions of the Palestinian people were improving? I mean: more freedom of movment, less unemployment and so on...

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Clever and a huge sense of humor! Be modest Alain, you are a Belgian!

I absolutely think that will help tremendously. Of course nobody is going to help make this happen until Hamas and other terrorist organizations cease their tactics.

Currently, the US, and many other nations have a policy of absolutely not dealing with terrorists or terrorist groups. When the PLO renounced terrorism, the US started working with them and things started getting better (until the terrorist tactics were started again).

Everyone knows this. The terrorists, the refugees, the PLO leadership knows that the US and other nations (including Israel) will not negotiate or deal with them if they use terrorist tactics. I don't know why they continue to use them.

-- Jeff

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"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem." --Ronald Reagan

What about the Israelian colonies?
Would you trust such a partner (supported by the US)?
I don't see any solution (again).

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Clever and a huge sense of humor! Be modest Alain, you are a Belgian!

Israel knows that the colonies in Gaza and the West Bank aren't helping matters. The US has repeatedly asked them to stop building those colonies. During the decade of peace in the 1990s (the time when the PLO wasn't pursuing terrorism), Israel stopped the building and actually started pulling out of these areas. Currently this is a difficult situation because families now live there. I believe the solution for these areas is exactly the solution that the Arabs were faced with when the Jews moved in in the 1940s. The land should be given back to the PLO control. The Israeli's living there should be notified that they can either move or remain, whatever their wish is, but if they remain, they'll be under Palestinian law, not Israel. They will become Palestinian citizens, not Israeli citizens. I suspect that most will move, but some will remain. The Palestinian government will have to guarantee their safety and fair treatment. If not, the UN will have to enforce sanctions against them.

-- Jeff

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"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem." --Ronald Reagan