Well, after the reports of american abuse of iraqi prisioners, just two days later a new report emerges, this time concerning british troops.
The photos, handed to the british press by UK soldiers who believed there were excesses being comited by fellow soldiers, are angering the arab community like nothing ever before. The abuse of sexual nature, is something the muslim community takes dead serious. Having pictures splashed on every front page of every newspaper from here to Timbuctu, of hooded naked iraqis, isn´t doing much good to the coalition. But if that was bad, seing a man being pissed on by a british troop has nailed the "hearts and minds" coffin permanently.
Not only they were beaten, thrown out of a moving truck, and suffered other forms of torture, they were urinated on! It´s total human rights chaos and anarchy.

The british government is now casting doubts on the autenticity of the pictures, in an effort to downplay the tremendous ammount of anger felt throughout the world, and the muslim community in particular.

The reason why situations of abuse like these happen, is explained by the rift existing between both cultures.But the real damning issue is that often it is not just the ground level troops that adopt such an arrogant superior attitude towards their prisioners. Often enough the superior officers share the same hatread and disconsideration for the iraqis, that their subordinates do. And thus condone and allow such abuses to continue with blatant impunity.
If these soldiers are to be punished, and rightly so, so should their superiors for allowing such widespread disregard for human life and human dignity.
Starting from the White House and the Pentagon, the language used by high ranking officials often reeks of racism and disregard for the iraqi people, and it is only natural that such a feeling would spread and disseminate down the chain of command, all the way down to the "grunts" in the field.
They are all to blame. Not only those whose hands are tarnished by such acts of savagery, but also those who condoned and silently aproved of such acts through their flammatory words and deeds. They all must face justice.
The White House is the ultimate culprit, in my understanding, due to their inflammatory speeches. Calling the iraqis of "thugs", "bandits", "wrongdoers" and "terrorists" has passed along a message to the troops on the field that such abusive behaviour was excusable and condoned.
"If the president does it, why shouldn´t we, right?"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3677311.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3676389.stm

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"Quincitilius Varus, give me back my legions!"
Emperor Augustus of Rome.

These stories are disturbing to say the least.

@ Ranger - Do you think that these actions are wide-spread and ignored by those in charge, or are they simply abberations by a few bad soldiers?

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The best daily political cartoons can be found here:

http://www.csmonitor.com/commentary/index.html

I concur that they are disturbing.

However, and not to excuse the actions, I believe we have not gotten the complete story. Like in any trial, we see the end result as it is presented by the media. What we have not seen is the evidence that may make this a lapse of judgement, a wide spread problem or something far more serious. Until the facts are in, I would like to withhold final judgment.
Until we know what exactly happened there, we can not pass judgement. It is the same situation as in the two Texas murder trials against two mothers (Yates and one other) both of whom killed their children. The end result is horrific, one however was found not guilty by reason of insaity, the other wasn't. We have not seen or heard all the evidence to those cases and can only speculate as far as these incidents go...

As clarification: I do believe in human rights and that the dignity of a human being is untouchable, the geneva convention and the rules governing each country I chose to live in.

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You know, I thought of that, but I can't think of a senario where the actions of the soldiers is reasonable.

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The best daily political cartoons can be found here:

http://www.csmonitor.com/commentary/index.html

And what about poor old neglected Afghanistan? Both the media and the public often forget there is a war still raging on, over there. And as in all conflict ridden regions of the world, serious torture and abuse of POWs and common prisioners exists with virtual impunity.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/mar2004/afgh-m10.shtml

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/dec2001/pows-d07.shtml

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0306-05.htm

http://www.ccmep.org/2004_articles/afghanistan/030804_forces_accused_of_looting.htm

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"Quincitilius Varus, give me back my legions!"
Emperor Augustus of Rome.

I do not think it is reasonable in any way. What is to be answered are the following:

1) was it a single event or are there numerous
2) was it always the same person/group committing the abuse
3) was it sanctioned
4) was it accepted

Once we have the answers to this we can say that the abuse was a lapse in judgement of a 20 something year old 4000 miles from home who needed a way to vent his frustrations or we have to condemn the whole outfit that was running that prison....
Before we throw all the MP's in the pot of human rights abusers and torchurers, I think they deserve to be held innocent until proven guilty....

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Very interesting:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/gall/0,8542,1208623,00.html

Interesting indeed. I am starting to have some doubts too, but they do not arrise from the points enumerated by that article.
Infact, some of them are outright pathetic.

1:The urine stream is not authentic? Well, how can anyone tell, from a set of black and white photos, that lack definition when augmented?
Having an open pouch is hardly sign of wrongdoing.

2:Brand new weapons in Iraq is not anything out of the ordinary. Weapons breakdown, are lost in battle and get stollen. They need replacements, that come in shiny condition due to oil. If these are false photos, we would also have to answer where the forgerer got his hands on such a weapon, along with a military truck.Claiming there is no particular model of a weapon in use in Iraq is also misleading. Some forces have access to several types of weapons.
Also, assuming these photos to be true, the troops involved were probably part of some disciplinary squad or Military Police, wich would explain mint condition weapons and uniforms, because they are not in the front lines.
The barrel uncovered could be explained by what i just said above aswell.

3:Magazine brand new? I can´t see shit, how can they tell there is or not any numbers on it? Black and white photos are not helping.
As for the arms of the guy being too slim, well, not everybody gets to be Arnold Schawrznegger clones, or do we? There are slim guys in the Army, just as there are fat guys. This is a pathethic piece of "evidence".
As for the floppy hat, many units use it while off duty, or outside conflict areas or not on patrols. The troops stationed on a base would wear it.So, we need to know where the photos were taken, don´t we?

4: If the guy shedding doubts on the photos had ever been in the military, he would know it´s virtually impossible to keep your panths over your boots. The movement of the legs, while sitting, and standing up again, pushes the elasticated bottom up, to the top of the boot. Any tall guy has serious problems with the panths crawling up the legs, like i did. And also, the panths are NOT inside the boots as claimed. Augment the photos and take a look.
As for "straight laced", i don´t know what the author means here. Does he mean the boot lace? If so, then it is only right to point out that individual units have they´re own ways of lacing the boots. The MPs and APs have diferent ways of lacing than regular troops. Special forces could also have diferent types of boot laces.
As for the clean T-Shirt, we don´t know when these photos were taken. It could be hours into the beating process, but it could also be during the transport process, before interrogation and beating even started. That would also explain the truck.
Also to note:
The T-Shirt looks silky, the type football players use to avoid transpiration.
The legs have no hair in them. Maybe a young boy, a teenager.
Has a tattoo on his left shoulder.

5: "No movement" is not proof of forgery. The trooper could just be holding his boot against the man´s chest, he wasn´t kicking him.
A clean uniform is a requirement. Front troops might get some slack, but rear troops have to maintain a clean uniform. Nothing suspitious there.
The prisioner makes no curling movement because he is not being kicked, as pointed before. He is just being imobilized.If there´s no pain, there´s no need to curl up.

The points brought up by the skeptics are not really points at all. Except maybe one: The photos do seem staged.
Now, i would be the first to jump at this kind of thing, and as much as i would want to believe the photos are legit, i can´t let them slide if they are fakes. If it turns out this was infact a put up show, then we have to give credit where credit is due.
It still doesn´t excuse the british Army, as this was just one more instance of the dozen others being investigated by the british Army.
But instead of questioning the photos, maybe we should question who took them and handed them to the press.
Acording to the press, a soldier took those photos because he believed there were excesses being commited by fellow troops, and decided to come forth. But who is he? Where is he? Is he in Iraq? Is he a soldier? Has the newspaper, who first got his hands on this, done his homework? Did they check the sources? If this is a fake, where did they get uniforms, a weapon, and a military truck?
Questions, questions, and more questions, but no answers in sight...

__________________
"Quincitilius Varus, give me back my legions!"
Emperor Augustus of Rome.

It doesnt excuse them, but it raises questions.

maybe it is a college fraternity initiation ritual (one of the kind that would get you into skull and bones;-)

years ago i heard about such initiation rituals on us navy ships and there is a lot of material about that on the internetfrom "Crossing the Line: Tradition, Ceremony, Initiation"
MIDN 4/C Swartz
Naval Science 1—Research Paper
Instructor: CDR McComas
19 November 1998

i did not even see blood on the pictures from iraq. for me that is like the story from the guantanamo detainees, who were 'tortured' with stripping hookers.