And how is this different from having laws that punish people for driving under the influence of currently illegal drugs? Why would making marijuana, for example, illegal be different from making alcohol or prescription drugs illegal?

Your argument is untenable. Choosing to ignore the logical conclusions of your argument by calling them "bovine defecation" doesn't help your cause any. It just shows that you're unable to support your position.
Because laws are not supposed to tell us what to do and what not to do. Laws are supposed to tell us what the punishment is for doing what society does not want us to do.
Yea, right. I'll tell my two kids that. Thanks for the heads up.

Fact is, my children have more responsibility than most kids their age - and they understand that their actions have consequences better than most kids their age. I do this because I believe that they need to learn how to be responsible adults and not depend upon the state (or me) tell them what they can and cannot do. Doesn't really speak to your argument about creating a nanny state where everything is proscribed now does it?

Since we're making reckless assumptions, I can only assume that your kids will grow up thinking that it's the state's fault that they don't have a job, or that they don't have a big house or pretty mates. Since you're teaching them to depend upon the state to tell them how to act and what to do with their lives they'll never figure it out for themselves.
And you should. How does this speak to making marijuana illegal but keeping alcohol, prescription drugs, driving faster than those around you, playing with your car radio or any of the myriad of other causes of car accidents which are currently legal?

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In this country, we don't need reasons to make things legal; we need reasons to make things illegal. - Startup

If alcohol and perscription drugs are legal but it's illegal to drive under the influence, then by your logic the same should be true for marijuana. Legalize marijuana, but keep DUI illegal.

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Exactly. Laws should codify the consequences if your actions abridge the rights of another, not dictate morality.

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In this country, we don't need reasons to make things legal; we need reasons to make things illegal. - Startup

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In this country, we don't need reasons to make things legal; we need reasons to make things illegal. - Startup

Muahahahaha!!! :bow:
I needed that, thank you!!! :fart:

Now, you ask about the social aspects. For those who have used drugs in a regular basis, it´s in plain view. But most haven´t reached the state of true understanding to realize that. Most users won´t acknowledge they even have a problem.
There are several downsides to drug use, and fewer upsides.
The downsides are easelly overlooked, like the simple fact that the numbers show a huge majority of hard drug users have started their way up through smoking pot, and drinking heavy liquor.
There are some users that won´t go further, and smoke pot for years without ever trying other substances. But the majority will use it to climb the drug ladder to heavier stuff, like cocaine, speed, or even crack cocaine and heroine. And i don´t think anyone here disputes wether heroine or cocaine is bad for you, am i right?
It´s not that pot is dangerous by itself, because it isn´t. Smoking a joint isn´t anymore dangerous than smoking a pack of Marlboros. It´s the consequences of smoking pot that are dire.
Weed smokers tend to form tight groups, like "tribes", and most of the time they shut out anyone who isn´t a smoker like them. In that respect, pot has a visible social consequence. Long time users tend to atribute more importance to pot than they do to other things, like a girlfriend, going to the movies, hang out with (non-smoking) friends, and sometimes even their own families.
Pot users are also ostracised by society, making them feel even more set aside and isolated, seeking refuge within the "tribe".
Most people will place pot users in the same basket as hard drugs addicts, because they see all drugs as an evil thing, and see every drug user as a thief and a criminal. This means pot users will see their jobs taken away by bosses who don´t know any better.
Because most people don´t understand that drug addiction is infact a desiese, most users go about without any treatment, and usually end up in prison. In my country, over 70% of the prison population is inside for drug related crimes, and some 80% or more are using drugs even while in custody. Some inmates have become addicted while in prison, after a life of non-use in the outside. Some 60% of the prison population are also HIV carriers and suffer from AIDS that they caught while doing time, due to the lack of clean needles and the sharing of the few available, by the entire addicted population.
Soft drugs users are also often part of fringe groups, that don´t quite fit in society´s gran scheme of things. Groups like the punks, the headbangers, motorcycle gangs, radical sportsmen, rastas, etc etc. In these groups, smoking pot is almost a requirement, a get-in card. But the "normal" society will always try to push these groups out, making them almost outlaws and misfits. Not because these persons are "evil" or "criminal", but simply because they use drugs, wich are often misunderstood and wrongly seen as synonim of violent or criminal behaviour. I know this, because i too am part of such groups, and i´ve been ostracised and discriminated all my life.
But then why am i against legalizing drugs, if i think like that, you may ask?
I am against legalizing drugs because, although i know legalizing them would make fringe groups more accepted in society, making them legal would cause a huge number of new users to climb the up the ladder into hard drugs! And also because legalizing one drug would set up a precedent to legalize another, and soon every drug would be as legal as booze.And hard drugs should definitely be viewed as a BAD thing.
But lets not kid ourselfs. Drugs should not be legalized, but they should definitely be discriminalized. No one should ever have to go to prison because they smoke dope. As they shouldn´t be imprisioned because they sell drugs to fund their addiction. Drug dealers who do it for the money should, but those small time dealers/consumers that do it to get their daily fix should not.
Europe is now almost totally discriminalized, wich means you can have drugs on you, as long as its for your own use, and not be arrested or your drugs taken. I believe America is still sadly far away behind on that.

TO BE CONTINUED.

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"Quincitilius Varus, give me back my legions!"
Emperor Augustus of Rome.

Btw, setting a few things straight.
Smoking weed will cause memory loss, lowering your heart rate, red eyes and not much else. The only really big "inconvenient" is the memory loss, because every other thing is quite trivial and non-important.
Smoking weed will also cause loss of inibitions, a feeling of well being, a sense of euphoria, and a huge craving for rading the fridge!
Smoking pot is actually very good for shy and timid people, because they will have a better time making friends and socializing. It is also a very good treatment for cronic and accute pain, resulting in relief in even the worst cases when even massive doses of morphine are not effective anymore.
And despite what most people think, smoking weed will not cause any significant slowdown in reflexes while driving.In some situations, weed can actually increase your reflexes, and cause an accute and sharp state of mind, improving your concentration.
But i agree that smoking while driving should be heavilly penalised, just as alcohol and medication. Drunk drivers are the plague of the XXth century.
Another thing:
You cannot compare the effects of alcohol with smoking weed, because they have diferent efects on the human body and they afect diferent parts of the brain. Alcohol has a huge impact on the body´s balance system, while as weed does not. Alcohol also afects your vision, while weed does not.
And the continous use of one or the other will have diferent efects. If you keep drinking shot after shot, you will get drunker. But weed will not. After you reach a certain point, no matter how much more you smoke you won´t go past it. It´s virtually impossible to get an overdose of weed. But it´s very easy to slip into an alcoholic coma.
Just thought you should know.
:beer:

__________________
"Quincitilius Varus, give me back my legions!"
Emperor Augustus of Rome.

Swamp Thing:
"Btw, setting a few things straight.
Smoking weed will cause memory loss, lowering your heart rate, red eyes and not much else. The only really big "inconvenient" is the memory loss, because every other thing is quite trivial and non-important."

Have you even bothered to check on the medical results posted? Your version of downsides for marijuana is speculative and at best it can be explained as your personal experience. You have disregarded everything that has been mentioned by either Aether or me on the subject, but most importantly by various medical researchers.
You also claimed: "the majority will use it to climb the drug ladder to heavier stuff, like cocaine, speed, or even crack cocaine and heroine"
That statement has no validity whatsoever. It is not backed up by any study, and my personal experience tells me otherwise, but hey, if your PERSONAL experience is that most users of pot use it to climb to higher drugs... dont be so rotund when 'setting things straight'
@Grisu:

You can smoke joints without tobacco. In fact, it is the best way to do it, cleaner and more potent. Other than that, you can smoke weed by itself on various forms (Bong, pipe, can, water bong........

Sounds like someone is in denial...

I just love your logic. Personal experience is speculative, and some theoretical medical result, which I am yet to see, is The Truth. If a personal experience contradicts a medical research (from you sources), perhaps the problem is with the latter, not the former...
You did not really discredit any claims in my earlier post, except for medicinal value of marijuana. SwamP_ThinG's experience correlates quite nicely with these claims
That's your personal experience. As for this statement having no validity whatsoever, I'll have to again direct you to my earlier post. Here is another study as well.
Study shows marijuana is gateway drug

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This is my logic:
Swamp_Thing posts: "Btw, setting a few things straight.
Smoking weed will cause memory loss, lowering your heart rate, red eyes and not much else. The only really big "inconvenient" is the memory loss, because every other thing is quite trivial and non-important."

My answer was that he disregards the posts made by me and you about the medical research. If he considers low heart rate as trivial, its his prerogative.

What differs from his point and mine is that where I admit the dangers, or possible causes of smoking marijuana, he thinks they are trivial, and reduces the effects to wha has been quoted above. I am not in denial.
I never said that what Swamp_Thing claims is untrue, only that it disregards other effects or downsides, and completely ignores possible upsides.
My experience differs from his, and it is really far away from what Grisu and yourself make out to be, but I do not deny that it has happenned. If you read my earlier post, I clearly state that it affects people differently, and even then, the result would vary depending on what kind of weed you were smoking.
Again:
"You have disregarded everything that has been mentioned by either Aether or me on the subject, but most importantly by various medical researchers.

You did not really discredit any claims in my earlier post, except for medicinal value of marijuana. SwamP_ThinG's experience correlates quite nicely with these claims"

Where, exactly do I say I discredit your finds? Did I not even bother to back up the sources used for that DEA document, something you hastily forgot?
As for Swamp_Things experience correlating nicely with your report:
"Smoking weed will also cause loss of inibitions, a feeling of well being, a sense of euphoria, and a huge craving for rading the fridge!
Smoking pot is actually very good for shy and timid people, because they will have a better time making friends and socializing. It is also a very good treatment for cronic and accute pain, resulting in relief in even the worst cases when even massive doses of morphine are not effective anymore.
And despite what most people think, smoking weed will not cause any significant slowdown in reflexes while driving.In some situations, weed can actually increase your reflexes, and cause an accute and sharp state of mind, improving your concentration."
Wow, the DEA really admit that smoking improves your concentration? Do it will help shy people?
Aether, exactly what are you reading from these posts that I am having so much trouble in finding?
When you posted that link did you just do a quick search on google or did you read the report? I was especially amazed that you give the gateway theory so much validity when even that link you posted states:
"It does not answer how marijuana, or cannabis, might lead to harder drugs."
"It is often implicitly assumed that using cannabis changes your brain or makes you crave other drugs," said lead researcher Michael Lynskey, "but there are a number of other potential mechanisms, including access to drugs, willingness to break the law and likelihood of engaging in risk-taking behavior."
Nor do you mention this:
Lynskey and colleagues acknowledged the study has several limitations, including relying on participants' reporting of their own experiences,
"In an accompanying editorial, Denise Kandel of Columbia University's psychiatry department said the study does not explain "whether or not a true causal link exists" between marijuana and hard drugs."
Whats your answer to that, considering you offered us this link?
Aether, before you go on rambling about me being in denial, have a good look at yourself. You claim marijuana is bad, you offer us the insights of a DEA report, yet you dont talk about where those facts were taken from. When I offer other medical research, you only admit that it might have medical value, but you still forget to talk about the non existent links to verify the DEAs other claims about the drugs, which are not backed up by the research done for the report.
I am not giving the TRUTH, but I am at least being honest about my findings, and even acknowledge the parts where it correlates with your arguments.
You also claimed that Swamp_Things experience correlate with those claims... and fail to mention his insights about the drug sharpening your motor skills, improving your social relations....
I am the one who is loving your logic mate. Lovin lovin lovin it

Barça, did i came across in any dubious way when i said "In some situations, weed can actually increase your reflexes, and cause an accute and sharp state of mind, improving your concentration."?
Wich part didn´t you understand? The "In some situations" part? Or something else?
Secondly, i really couldn´t care less about a DEA study, being that the situation in North and South America is totally diferent from Europe, where around 40% of the world´s hard drug users are, as opposed to the US´s meager 5%. You want studies? I will give you some.
But don´t waste my time with your denial phase, ok?
It´s very well knowned that "junkies" never admit to having a problem anyway, so you are just adding to that statistic.
And prey tell me ownmany hard drugs users do you know in person? And that you have talked to about this? Do you realise that i´ve been to Timbuctu and back with all this crap? Do you realize that there isn´t a drug center or therapy that i haven´t tried yet? And that i´ve met literally thousands of junkies from across Europe, from Russia to Ireland, and from Spain to Slovenia? And that all we did all day was to talk about our personnal experiences?
I couldn´t care less about some doctors in lab coaths, sitting in an office in the up part of town away from all the dirt, and trying to convince me that they know more about it than we do!! It´s total BS!
The next time you want to dispute this, take a deep breath and shut up, because you´re in for the voyage of your life!!

Oh, you want to make this into a piss contest, do you? To see who has the most "experience", is that it? Go ahead, i´ll love this!!!

Yeah, and you know why? Because most junkies won´t ever admit to being one in the first place, wich is why studies aren´t worth the paper they are printed in.
To know the real hard truth, you need to go to the streets, you need to meet them face to face, you need to visit the "Casal Ventoso"s and "3000 viviendas" of this world.You can´t do it from your desk uptown.

"It is often implicitly assumed that using cannabis changes your brain or makes you crave other drugs," said lead researcher Michael Lynskey, "but there are a number of other potential mechanisms, including access to drugs, willingness to break the law and likelihood of engaging in risk-taking behavior."

And how do you think those mechanisms work, if not how i just told you?
Going up the drug ladder is not a medical issue, its a social issue. I never said weed makes you crave harder drugs, did i? I only said that when you enter the weed path, you enter a whole new pattern of living, and climbing up the ladder is an obvious expected result to many.
All those mechanisms are social triggered, not medical.

"It is often implicitly assumed that using cannabis changes your brain " What a crock of shit!!! Who the hell assumes that? Probably non users....
Don´t waste my time with this.

Barça, the first step to rehabilitation is admiting to the problem. When you´ve finally learned that, then you can be helped. But not a second before.
I´ve learned that the hard way, after dozens of relapses. And it all started with that single joint, almost 20 years ago. Of that initial group, 2 are dead, one is rehabilitated, 2 are in jail, a few others are still at it, and every single one of us had moved up to heroine after a couple of years. How´s that for your statistics?

__________________
"Quincitilius Varus, give me back my legions!"
Emperor Augustus of Rome.