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Old 05-27-2004, 11:25 PM
SwamP_ThinG SwamP_ThinG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zteccc
Do you have the links for these polls? I know that there are many polling bodies in the US and only a very few are impartial.
The article came out a few weeks ago, and it was discussed widely here. I can try to track it back for you.
Regarding the imparciality of the polling body, i canīt say if thatīs true or not, nor to wich side it pended. I believe the results favour none of the political groups, so i wouldnīt expect any big partizanship.
A similar poll was conducted by a british body, and arrived to similar conclusions. If both came to the same conclusions, chances are they are correct, isnīt that right?


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A person is a terrorist either because of their goals or because of their tactics. I can agree with you that some of the palestinian groups have non-terrorist goals (the creation of a Palestinian state), but they choose terrorist tactics and as such are terrorists. By calling them anything else, you condone (or at least dismiss) their tactics (you also fall close to saying the ends justify the means).
Well, that allways depends on the eye of the beholder, doesnīt it? One manīs terrorist is another manīs freedom fighter, as said countless times here. This issue was discussed ad nauseum here aswell. Feel free to check back past threads, itīs there. But as it is, that issue has no relevence here for this thread.


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Just because new intelligence disputes a committee's finding doesn't automatically render the intelligence finding as invalid. Just because nothing could be proven in June doesn't mean that by December (the date on the article you quoted) new facts hadn't come to light.
Also another issue discussed here to exaustion. Forgive me if i donīt get into that again, iīm a little weary of it.You can check back on that aswell.


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No, the fact that they were in Iraq doesn't prove Hussein's support of them, but the washington times article that I referenced speaks of Iraqi officials travelling to the Sudan to train Al Quaeda.
Same thing. An official traveling to other countries is hardly proof that his "boss" put him up to it. Often people have diferent feelings than the ones they are supposed to uphold, by superior orders. People are free to choose sides.If some iraqi happens to sympathize with Al Qaeda and seeks to have meetings and help their cause, it hardly signifies his boss does it too. It simply comes down to circumstancial evidence, at most.


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Nonetheless, it is still a human reaction and not all that surprising. Wanting revenge doesn't mean he is violent. Lashing out in pain and grief doesn't mean he's inheirently violent, but rather that the situation he was in made him make a violent decision.
No, it doesnīt mean he is inherently violent, it only means that his actions are dictated by the influence of the society where he lives. The US is the highest militarized society on earth, and i think this is beyond dispute. The US society leans heavily on its military might, and as such it has a great influence on the daily life of an average american. Add to that the gun laws, and you get a lot of armed people with an attitude. It is not a coincidence that everywhere in the world people see the american society as beligerant.
Itīs not just something you see in movies. Acording to the latest polls taken in Europe, the US is right behind Israel as the biggest threats to world peace, and that tells us a lot.



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Remember that the Iraq war wasn't because of 9/11. It was because of UN resolutions that were disregarded. It was because of Iraq's support of terrorism (not just Al Quaeda). And it was because of weapons that most of the world, including the UN, believed Saddam Hussein to have at the time the war started. If the UN didn't believe it, then were they just wasting their time trying to get inspectors back into the country?
It wasnīt about 9/11?? Well, you could have fooled me!! Then why does Bush uses Saddam, Iraq, terrorism and 9/11 in the same sentences?
Why the hurry to invade Iraq? He had Afghanistan in pieces, Osama was still missing, the inspectors were inside Iraq trying to find any misdeeds and found none significant. Hans Blix was accused of being incompetent for not finding anything, yet the US has 135.000 men in Iraq trying to find them and came up empty handed aswell! And Blix didnīt have 1/10 of the resources the US has! The resolutions were there, but it turns out they were not violated after all, isnīt it? All those claims Powell made at the UN, were bogus! The 45 minute claim, bogus. The iraqi defectors, bogus. It was all bogus, so the resolutions werenīt violated as Bush said it was.
But again, this is all old news. We have gone this path before.

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In fact, at least one weapon has been found, the makings of others have been found and there is evidence that much was destroyed by Saddam Hussein's people or transported out of Iraq during the war.
Artillery shells do not qualify as WMDs. They are of low destruction rate. The only thing that could prove as WMD woulde be to find the plant that made the chemicals still working. One shell is nothing. Iraq has hundreds of them awaiting destruction from even before the war. They are old, rusted, leaking, and the chemical inside is useless. The shelf life of these shells has been passed by a decade or more. For you to claim Saddam was in breech, you need to find proof that he continued to make these weapons after the last inspections, in 99 if iīm not mistaken. Finding stuff that preceds the inspections and the resolutions is virtually worthless as evidence.


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Millions of US Citizens supported the war in Iraq. Millions supported WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Korea, Desert Storm, etc. Others opposed these wars (all of them). Many other countries also supported all of these conflicts, does that make the citizens of all of these nations violent too? Supporting the war isn't about a violent streak, it is about supporting one's country and supporting the troops who are brothers, sisters, parents, friends, relatives, etc.
Sorry, i donīt buy into that. If you only support your troops, why in hell would you send them to a war to die?? I donīt call that support. You donīt support your husband or son or boyfriend by sending him to die off in some desert. Yes, many millions supported the war. Many millions in the US alone, because everywhere else this war got zilch support. Only governments supported the war, but not that countryīs population. The anti-war feeling rounded 90% in some countries. You will be hard pressed to find any support in Europe for this war. And even in America things are changing at a fast pace. This war was a fiasco from the get go. It was based in lies, deception and no real purpose. Only a handfull of menīs secret agendas. It was all for the oil. If they wanted to liberate a people that really needs to be liberated, they would have invaded N. Korea. There you wiįll find a dictator that makes Saddam look like Mother Theresa! So why didnīt they invade Korea? Iīll tell you why, no oil!



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Every culture on this planet has violence, either in the present or the past. In fact, I'd be impressed if you could name 10 currently non-violent cultures (no crime, no violence of any sort). Most cities deal with murder, gangs, rapes, kidnapping, burglary, organized crimes, etc. Nonetheless, that wasn't your argument at first. Your argument was that from the article about the name on the bomb, you can draw the conclusion that many Americans have a violent streak. Your argument doesn't hold water without introducing additional evidence.
This is where you went totally wrong. I never meant to base my claim in only this article, and had you been around longer you would know that. This articcle was just another piece of the puzzle that has been made here over and over again. You just happened to stumble on it on your first visits.
For the record, this article isnīt even all that enlightning, as there are countless others with more impact.
Of course other nations have crime, robbery and murder, that was never the question. The issue here is that the US has so much more of it that its down right scary! You have Columbine, you have Texas University, you have West Hollywood and guys in freakinībody armour, you have the KKK marches in the streets, segregation and racism (not as strong as before, but still present), you have the Bloods, the 18th Street, you have your political assassinations, JFK, Martin Luther King, Bobby Kennedy, you have your AK-47s for sale at the corner gun shop, i mean the list is endless! And these things might occur ocasionally in some other countries, but not in the massive ammount the US does. And for the record, i think your gun laws are the main reason for it all.

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A truly objective viewpoint would call it as they see it, both good and bad. Where's the good? Where's the realization that there is a broad spectrum in the United States (and the rest of the world), not just the side that you see reported in the media?
Of course you have the good sides too, i wasnīt just talking about them in this thread. Iīve always said one of the greatest achievements of mankind is american made, the space race. I absolutely love what you are doing to make space travel a reality! You also have one of the most efficient R&D policies, your work in medicine is astounding! You make beautifull cars (alltough not as fuel efficient as ours), you have THE greatest motorcycle ever built, need i say the name? You make great movies, you make great computers, great software, anything Hi tech you make is fabulous!
But then i must say, your foreign policy stinks to high heaven! You have a man in the White House who got there by a court order, with less votes than the opponent. And you have this "mania" of strongarming every other country to get it your way, you meddle too much. Your CIA has brought more governments down than we can count. And you have this superior attitude, that makes you think "we are the best, and fuck the rest"...
This might be painfull to hear, but itīs the honest truth. Donīt think bad of me, i am just being honest and straightforward. I am not saying all this to glorify my own country, as i am my countryīs biggest critic. I am just telling it as it is.
:rolleyes:
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